Oh, it's finally here! again!

[berry120]

OK, I'll bite this once.

since Jesus said on probably ten occasions that the rapture would occur within the lifetime of his followers..

...when he was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem, i.e. the destruction of the temple - which did occur within the lifetime of many of his followers.

But just this once here. Either way, it'd be nice if this thread went without the whole Christianity vs. Atheism thing that's already come up too many times in the past... We're referring here to a guy that thinks he knows something that by almost all accounts going he can't, and doesn't. I think everyone here has probably got the same view on it regardless of religious belief!

So to start with, it was:

http://may21-2011.com/

Then:

http://oct21-2011.com/

I see a business plan here. Anyone want in on the next predicted domain name date?

 

[foothead]

OK, I'll bite this once.

...when he was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem, i.e. the destruction of the temple - which did occur within the lifetime of many of his followers.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near. In the same way, when you see all these things, know that he is near, at the gates. Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

How is this referencing the temple?

EDIT: This one is even more clear.

Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.

I have a bible somewhere with a whole bunch of passages like this marked off, but I cannot get at it right now.


Back on the main topic, I found this on the wikipedia page for Harold Camping.

I find it hilarious that they felt the need to put a citation on that last sentence.

 

[berry120]

How is this referencing the temple?

There's two main takes on it, the first being that it's metaphorical since many in Jesus' day thought that when the temple was destroyed the world would end. See here (Mark Bradford's Bible Blog » Matthew 24:29-35) for a post that takes that view; it's one that a lot of people I know subscribe to and it's entirely valid.

The other take is that the word for "generation" in Greek can also be translated as "race", or "age". So an alternative view of what Jesus said is that these things will happen before this age ends, i.e. the human race dies out.


Personally I see it as one of the weaker arguments against Christianity, it's one that comes up a lot but there are perfectly reasonable and decent explanations for it. Sure, you could argue that one possible interpretation is that Jesus was talking literally and he was wrong, but that doesn't make it *the* definitive one and only way of translating it, which is what many seem to believe...

 

[foothead]

There's two main takes on it, the first being that it's metaphorical since many in Jesus' day thought that when the temple was destroyed the world would end. See here (Mark Bradford's Bible Blog » Matthew 24:29-35) for a post that takes that view; it's one that a lot of people I know subscribe to and it's entirely valid.

That link really just seems like he's trying to justify his beliefs, instead of coming to an actual conclusion of what was meant. I recall Jesus saying similar things about the apocalypse several other times without even mentioning the temple.

The other take is that the word for "generation" in Greek can also be translated as "race", or "age". So an alternative view of what Jesus said is that these things will happen before this age ends, i.e. the human race dies out.

Mistranslation is very well possible. I don't know Greek, so I really cannot weigh in here about this passage. In Luke 9:27, Jesus says nothing about generations though, he instead specifies that people in his presence would see the second coming.

Personally I see it as one of the weaker arguments against Christianity, it's one that comes up a lot but there are perfectly reasonable and decent explanations for it. Sure, you could argue that one possible interpretation is that Jesus was talking literally and he was wrong, but that doesn't make it *the* definitive one and only way of translating it, which is what many seem to believe...

I'm trying to not get too off topic, but what are your "reasonable and decent explanations"? It seems like every time someone points out any type of contradiction in the bible, Christians will either argue that it's a translation error or it's being taken out of context (whatever that means.) Neither of these are really valid arguments though, unless they can prove that it actually is a translation error. It's usually just wishful thinking, but it works because it's hard to immediately disprove.

 

[berry120]

In terms of Luke 9:27, I'd say the transfiguration was what he was talking about there rather than the end of the world, and those present would have definitely seen some of the kingdom of God before they died!

I'm trying to not get too off topic, but what are your "reasonable and decent explanations"? It seems like every time someone points out any type of contradiction in the bible, Christians will either argue that it's a translation error or it's being taken out of context (whatever that means.) Neither of these are really valid arguments though, unless they can prove that it actually is a translation error. It's usually just wishful thinking, but it works because it's hard to immediately disprove.

In terms of the reasonable and decent explanations, I believe the above ones I've given are.

In terms of the context / translation error argument - it may seem like Christians use it a lot but I believe that's where a lot of misunderstanding lies, especially in context. I often see people (I'm not referring to yourself here, just in general) take a short passage or single verse and use it to try to contradict another short passage or single verse. What might show as an apparent contradiction in that sense can really turn out not to be in context, and that's true for anything not just the bible. If I say "I'm going to the shops" one day and "I'm not going to the shops" another day, I could quote those two things in isolation and it seems ridiculous. Of course, in context they're both perfectly valid statements.

In terms of the translation error arguments - I wouldn't say error, more ambiguity. Greek / Hebrew and English are very different languages and from the little I know we have specific words which they don't and vice versa. Love for instance has many different words in Greek, but that gets lost in translation to English. And going the other way round, where Greek has a word that could be translated into several English words, the potential is always there for ambiguity and that's often not known until you look at the original.


And yes, the last citation you mention is rather amusing...!

 

[J03]

Oh FFS not another one of these threads.

 

[berry120]

Oh FFS not another one of these threads.

Sorry, my mistake - I get caught up despite not meaning to. As far as I'm concerned though that's the end of it, I'm not partaking in any such debating here

 

[~Darkseeker~]

Noes you ruined my end of ze world thread with bible talk D:

 

[clacker]

The end of the world is so over rated.

 

[~Darkseeker~]

End Of Ze World - YouTube

old skool