Ok. so Obama's health-care legilslation passed.

[JogaBonito1502]

Haha...it was a very ironic statement, but I didn't know how else to put it. I tried using quotes to indicate that I did not mean it literally.

Just like you, I have my own opinions on how things could be done. However, I understand that I am nowhere close to understanding the full situation. I am being realistic. We need to work off what has been instituted. It doesn't matter if we can "overthrow" the government and start something anew based on the 1776 landmark document. Eventually, we would return to the same situation we're in now: a select amount of people running things because the entire population feels fear.

 

[63083]

@63083: Corruption!? That's absurd. I don't think you know what corruption looks like, my friend. Visit Brazil sometime, then check back to me.

That may be corruption, but they just don't care mostly....even their leaders don't live in super nice big fancy mansions. Those countries and others...that is forced corruption. They had the guts to put themselves where they are now. Our government is truly corrupted. Hundreds of lawmakers and politicans that care nothing but making themselves wealthy. I know not every politician is like this and truly care about the safty and well being of the public, and I give them a big congradulations and a seat in my new "would-be" maybe will-be government.

 

[JogaBonito1502]

That's not quite how Brazil works. I will try to explain the level of corruption that occurs down there. I will not guarantee 100% accuracy because I do not keep up with the news on a regular basis. What I am about to say is based on what was going on last time I visited.

Down in Brazil, you have millions of reais (Brazilian currency denoted as R$) being deviated from institutions and government programs to the pockets of politicians. This money arrives to bank accounts all over the world. Why? So these politicians have money to afford their vacations in the most beautiful cities around the planet.

Here's another manifestation of corruption: Here, if you're a delegate, you "work" for free. In Brazil, you're paid to be a delegate. So, I think you can create a picture of where this goes.

The is little corruption in the United States when compared to the rest of the world. It is human nature for people to be greedy; you cannot stop it. Everyone is greedy to an extent, and I could write paragraphs upon paragraphs on examples of how this is true. Luckily, the United States has little manifestation of this in its government.

 

[63083]

Haha...it was a very ironic statement, but I didn't know how else to put it. I tried using quotes to indicate that I did not mean it literally.

Just like you, I have my own opinions on how things could be done. However, I understand that I am nowhere close to understanding the full situation. I am being realistic. We need to work off what has been instituted. It doesn't matter if we can "overthrow" the government and start something anew based on the 1776 landmark document. Eventually, we would return to the same situation we're in now: a select amount of people running things because the entire population feels fear.

Well to be honest, we will not let that happen. We would give the public all of the information, as long as is it would not create chaos and mass panic. Public school will actually TEACH them the truth about everything in the history of our country at age-appropriate levels. The rights of citizens would be taught yearly beginning in high school. Guns will be made legal to anyone over 18 in every state so the populations of the US knows that they have power and leverage against the government and can use it if need be. In turn, the government knows it has limited power over it's people and if they want power of the people, it will cost them dearly.

Right now guns are made illegal in some states because people dislike the government and it makes the government lawmakers afraid that people could rebel.

 

[JogaBonito1502]

That sounds like recipe for disaster to me. There are many different kinds of people. With sensible information out, chaos and mass panic are almost guaranteed. Secondly, you cannot teach truth. The best thing you can do is teach facts and let students come to a conclusion on how they regard the subject. Handing a gun to any person who knocks on the door is not a good idea either. Remember how people tend to satisfy their needs before the needs of others? Well, when you have a greedy man with the ability to take someone's life at the palm of his hands, you don't have a very safe environment do you? Your idea of a free country is very noble, but it would not play well in reality. People would turn against people, the government would be destroyed, and you'd essentially have anarchy. I believe it was John Locke who first stated that you cannot have safety without giving up freedom. These days, people really like safety.

edit: There are many ways to rebel without guns. People don't do it because they're afraid of the government. I don't think rebellion is the best thing for the country right now. Should such thing occur in the middle of the Information Era, the United States is going to fall behind lose its status as a world super-power (that's actually slowly happening right now).

 

[63083]

That sounds like recipe for disaster to me. There are many different kinds of people. With sensible information out, chaos and mass panic are almost guaranteed. Secondly, you cannot teach truth. The best thing you can do is teach facts and let students come to a conclusion on how they regard the subject. Handing a gun to any person who knocks on the door is not a good idea either. Remember how people tend to satisfy their needs before the needs of others? Well, when you have a greedy man with the ability to take someone's life at the palm of his hands, you don't have a very safe environment do you? Your idea of a free country is very noble, but it would not play well in reality. People would turn against people, the government would be destroyed, and you'd essentially have anarchy. I believe it was John Locke who first stated that you cannot have safety without giving up freedom. These days, people really like safety.

You do not hand guns to anyone. That is exactly what background checks and other preventative messures are for....ensuring only safe people can get theirs hands on guns. As for people liking safety, I don't know one person who wouldn't feel safer than ever against robbers or the government with an M16 / AR15 or an AK-47 and a box of 5.56 NATO or 7.62x39 Soviet rounds next to their beds when they sleep.

edit: There are many ways to rebel without guns. People don't do it because they're afraid of the government. I don't think rebellion is the best thing for the country right now. Should such thing occur in the middle of the Information Era, the United States is going to fall behind lose its status as a world super-power (that's actually slowly happening right now).

Well then no harm done if we rebel.

EDIT: you DO NOT need to be a world super-power to be unbelievably powerfully. Look at Germany during WWII, previously Soviet Russia, North Korea, Iran, hell even the militia groups in the middle east. They are all putting up a hell of a fight or did put one up. And those militia groups, they don't even have a freaking country. We have a huge country and tens of millions of young and middle-aged people. We are hardly using our full potential as a modern super-power. We could easily become a gloal super power if we utilized our resources effeciently.

 

[JogaBonito1502]

I would feel safer without a gun than with a gun. If I have a gun and a robber enters my house, that is a reason for him to shoot me. He'll run this thought through his head, "Crap! He's got a gun, either I shoot or I get the hell out of here". Those are less options from when I don't have a gun, and therefore a higher chance of him shooting at me. In addition to that, you should have an alarm system installed at your house. That will spook a robber more often than not.

With regards to rebellion: The United States is losing its lead because it is not producing engineers. Once upon a time, the U.S. was able to hold foreign engineers within borders because the U.S. was the place to be if you wanted cutting edge technology. With growing economies such as China and India (which happen to be the major source of foreign engineers), less and less immigrant scientists/engineers are staying within borders. Most are coming to attend college, then leaving back to their country where their family reside. The U.S. has not lost its reign, yet. It is possible, with an increased focus on math and science, to regain the lead and solidify its position as the #1 country in the world. However, if there is a rebellion, those chances go from good to slim-zero.

 

[Atomic Rooster]

It hasn't passed yet. The bill was passed in the House. It now goes to the Senate where it should die an ugly death if the American people are lucky.

 

[root]

just to add to some of the above...

constitutional right to over throw the government? can you point that one out?
(are you sure that you're not thinking of the second amendment?) -A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. -that's not the right to over throw government.

also there are laws against sedition, so you're actually breaking the law even discussing over throwing the government.

In 1940, the Congress enacted the Smith Act, which made it illegal to advocate "the propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force and violence."

Things don't change all that much just because you vote someone new into office.

but surely thing do change? you (as a population) vote someone into office, now they are making changes... what's the problem?

I believe it was John Locke who first stated that you cannot have safety without giving up freedom. These days, people really like safety.

and it was benjamin franklin who wrote

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

John Locke also died in 1704 some 72 years since the American constitution was written, I also believe that about that time, the American peoples decided to give up the 'safety' of being surrounded and run by an army in order to become a free society that ran themselves.




with regards healthcare...
as I understand it, this healthcare package is just like any other health care package, you pay premiums and get insurance, the only difference being that the underwriter is the US government rather than a bank. -and after the bail outs there is little difference between the two anyway!

compare that to the much more social English system where everyone is forced to pay national insurance on their earnings, in return we get free healthcare -except it's not free, we already paid our insurance premiums, the difference being that the choice of insurer was already sorted for us!

(in short, paying into the obama healthcare scheme will be a choice, just like you have a choice to pay into any of the other schemes) -please correct me if I'm wrong.

, less and less immigrant scientists/engineers are staying within borders. Most are coming to attend college, then leaving back to their country where their family reside.

why would they stay?

it's not the advancement of India/China that has caused this, it's the internet.

50 years ago if you were in India you'd get a few phone lines out of the country that you could communicate on. hardly good for academic research.

now you have the internet, academics can work jointly on projects all around the world, there is no incentive to be away from your family for so long when you can just as easily do the work at home surrounded by your family

 

[JogaBonito1502]

and it was benjamin franklin who wrote

Yes, but there was an Enlightenment Philosopher who stated that before Benjamin Franklin.

In addition to the Smith Act, there are also the Alien and Sedition Acts.