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Old 03-08-2009, 06:21 AM   #71
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Default Re: My first site for a client!

burn 420...
your site sucks. it looks crap, and it's technically crap as well.

you don't open tags, you don't close tags you close tags where you haven't opened tags and you mix versions of HTML and DHTML in the same document.

you reckon that you can learn a whole new language in ten days,
and yet this is your second/third version of the site? I honestly dread to think what the first two versions were like.

that aside I doubt your claim that you can learn new languages in ten days, simply because I don't think that you'd have coded three different versions of the same site in ten days, changed server providers from hosted to home hosting, and STILL not be able to effectively use HTML.

perhaps you should look at the site that you were criticising and learn some lessons on coding and design?


Anyway, as to the first site.
It's clean, effective, well designed.

I don't think that it's worth $300, but that's just my opinion.

I don't like the fact that it's designed in a CMS but I guess if your client wanted that then they wanted that, and it'll be easier for them to update in the end.
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Old 03-08-2009, 06:41 AM   #72
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Default Re: My first site for a client!

I would love to take a look at a portfolio of some of these sites you have done for clients burn420.
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Old 03-08-2009, 09:07 AM   #73
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Default Re: My first site for a client!

Gee, The site that I built for him was easy to build. But you still had to have some knowledge of how to build it @ nevermind....I'd like to see you build something better than your Pokemon websites...yeah, that's right :P
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Old 03-08-2009, 11:59 AM   #74
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Default Re: My first site for a client!

Wow, this got out of hand since i last checked it! eslfish, you are on the right road. For the record, and this is probably more argumentative than helpful, http://site.tritg.com is a site that I'm finishing up for my company. This is a site that took a little more than a month. (all done using a "text-editor"). For the most part it is valid, the html tags are semantically correct. It works on FF, IE, Safari, Opera, Flock, works on 1024x768, 1280x1024, any widescreen format fitting about those specs, has server side and clicnet side cross browser compatibility for older legacy browsers like netscape and IE6, the graphics have been optimized for faster load time, the SEO of the site is still being tweaked and re-vamped.

The point i'm making is that a lot of thought goes into developing a website, and knowing a bunch of languages (of which I know quite a few ) does NOT make you a web-"designer". It makes you a coder/programmer. I've spent more than 10 years doing this stuff, and what I've learned about it when you start to work for clients, is that they don't care specifically if you take all of these things into consideration. They want it done; and they want it done right, in the correct time frame and at the right price. It's YOUR job as a web-developer to deliver all of this in a package that is technically sound, because well: Thats your JOB as a web-developer is to consider all of these aspects FOR the client. Writing VALID html and css markup is the starting point (your foundation) upon which you build the rest of the site.

Many times these three goals can't be met by writing custom code EVERY time. Using pre-written code to accomplish your goals is necessary sometimes. That site I just threw up there (and am possibly going to get flamed for because I'm not a photoshop guru has a full content-management system backend, where my boss can go in and modify a text file via a web-interface and it makes the changes to the page. Meta tags can be modified, meta descriptions, css file locations, styles, everything all from the system. All in about a month. (If I had it my way it would have taken longer because I like to be diligent).

Anyway, the point in all this is this: I understand where you're coming from burn, FrontPage bugs THE CRAP out of me, but you have to be tolerant of those who may not know the inner-workings of the site. I have to admit that I was surprised to see you apologize the way you did, kudos to you for de-escalating the situation. eslfish, you also need to take things with a grain of salt (which you did, so kudos to you also), especially when you get some designers like tom-knox (you know I love you in a non-homosexual way ) who like to do things the hard way (myself included in that) and write everything out by hand . Keep at it, and over time, you'll begin to learn all of those languages too (if you keep doing work for others it will necessitate itself).

I feel like I'm lacking in a strong ending here after my rant, but it's raining here in Ohio and I have to get some work done now, so 01110000 01100101 01100001 01100011 01100101 00100000 01101111 01110101 01110100 for all you binary lovers.
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Old 03-08-2009, 12:12 PM   #75
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Default Re: My first site for a client!

@ Daeva nice site dude, I like how it has a kind of a flash side drop menu...yeah I used Drupal for the site that I built for my client...I know it doesn't take that much of skill. But its a start into web designing...I hope to one day to be able to write code like HTML or something, I'm just only concerned it's going to be hard...but I think I can manage...thanks for your input. I like talking constructive criticism from experience web designers!

EDIT: nice Favicon BTW
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Old 03-08-2009, 12:16 PM   #76
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Default Re: My first site for a client!

HTML looks tricky at first, but all the tags are logical and the syntax is simple.

It's the best language to learn to get into webdesign and a great place to start in coding. Congrats on getting $300 for that site but now, start challenging yourself.
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Old 03-08-2009, 02:51 PM   #77
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Default Re: My first site for a client!

root - Firstly I never said I could learn a language in 10 days... I said I could learn a typical language in a bout a month... Also thank you I am very glad you think my site looks like crap, so do I... But it looks like crap cause I personally don't want my site to simply follow any typical website out there... Which is what has taken so long; trying new templates here and there, figuring out exactly what parts I want to keep, what parts I want to throw out ect ect. Pardon me for not doing a professional job on a draft that I knew would just be thrown out to begin with... I mean seriously would you do everything 100% correct for a bunch of code that you knew you would just be throwing out later on, when you felt it was time to re-code the entire thing? Pretty sure you wouldn't when you are doing a site that is not just a simple couple of pages...
Lowndsey - The only site I have done for a client (due to his lack of time) is still not complete, I have been waiting for him to upload the content so I can make sure there is no bugs to work out (btw I don't do work for clients cause of the fact that I still don't feel ready on a personal level to do work for clients), but if you would like when I do have it finished I will let you know.
Daeva - Like the site, I have been thinking about getting into asp, not really sure though... I want to get further with my skills in graphic design, but I usually don't have much time to do much of anything, so learning it all can get pretty ruff for me lol... Though of course I would apologize for being rude, I know I have my times where I don't realize I am being rude and in which case I will apologize for it...
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Old 03-08-2009, 03:38 PM   #78
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Default Re: My first site for a client!

Quote:
Originally Posted by eslfish View Post
It's not just a Bullshit program! Making websites w/ Drupal is time consuming...Did you check out Drupal.org?
What exactly did you modify from the original theme?
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Old 03-09-2009, 06:47 AM   #79
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Default Re: My first site for a client!

Quote:
Originally Posted by burn420 View Post
root - Firstly I never said I could learn a language in 10 days... I said I could learn a typical language in a bout a month...
Firstly, My apologies, in fact you did say that you'd be able to learn new languages in a month or two, not ten days, you said you'd been "in the game" for ten years...

Anyway...
in answer to your questions/statements...
Quote:
Also thank you I am very glad you think my site looks like crap, so do I... But it looks like crap cause I personally don't want my site to simply follow any typical website out there...
You don't want to follow any website out there...

Firstly fucking huge kudos for that, I can't stand it when people rip off someone else, copy their code, change a could of colour tags, or even leave all the templates and colour exactly the same and try to pass it off as their own work. so it's good you've not done that.

http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3/

Go there to see what I mean.

Quote:
Which is what has taken so long; trying new templates here and there, figuring out exactly what parts I want to keep, what parts I want to throw out ect ect.
Templates? what templates? it might be rude, but I can't honestly say that I can see anything that really counts as designed on that site, it's all added in the page, just kind of dumped there. there is no real design

http://www.csszengarden.com/
Go there to see what I mean about designed pages that can be used again.

Quote:
Pardon me for not doing a professional job on a draft that I knew would just be thrown out to begin with...
What's the point in doing the draft if you're not going to make it something that you can improve upon? I mean are you saying that you just wanted to get some content up there? or you wanted to test some designs? I'm not sure, because you seem to lack both content and design on that site,
I'll have to admit that I haven't signed up to your site so I can't see the members area.


Quote:
I mean seriously would you do everything 100% correct for a bunch of code that you knew you would just be throwing out later on, when you felt it was time to re-code the entire thing? Pretty sure you wouldn't when you are doing a site that is not just a simple couple of pages...
Ummmm, actually yes!
talk to any of the members here who I worked on a forum project with, all code I submitted was finished to the level and stage of the project that was expected, all the code was commented to a good standard so that other people in the project could work on and improve my code.

aside from that, every site I make starts with a blank template, I finish the look before adding the content, I forget what it's called, but there is a way of writing text that makes no sense but looks like it might make sense so you get an idea of content, yet not caught up in the fact that there is actually text that can distract you from the design.

Anyway, the point is that every site that I make starts in the same way
The first step is either with pen and paper, or with a copy of paint, in this I draw a rectangle, that's the page, I'll draw a space for the header, and a space for the page, everything is just line drawing, from here I work out where my containers need to be for the text, and alignment and pictures etc.

Second step is using notepad with two empty documents, one called style.css and one called template.html

I'll have firefox and IE open and build up a template, (usually starting from the top and working down).
looking at my drawn template a a visual representation of what I'm doing I'll go down opening div tags for each section, and then closing them all, the n I change to the style page and add tags to determin page placement, at the design stage I usually add a border to everything so that I can see where the elements are.

enough of my process, the point is yes, I try to make all of my designs perfect, pixel perfect, for the simple reason that they are my designs, and they are my templates.

look at it this way, in a few weeks you'll throw that site away, you can't keep or re-use any of it.
lets say that you spent three hours making it, that's three hours wasted.

now assume that you were more worried about your prototype design, you could have spent six hours properly designing it, and making it pixel perfect, you may think that this wastes three hours as you may still throw it away,
but it's not, because if you have a good looking pixel perfect site, you can sell that template, or you can re-use that template. so that extra three hours can save days of work later, or even just become a page in a portfolio that may help make you some money.

your site that you have now really is a waste of three hours, because given time you get rid of it and start again, and you'll never put that page in a portfolio.



Anyway...

firstly, ignore the fact that the OP has likely used a template, assume that they sat down with their client and designed that site, then they used a CMS to build that site, what's the problem. they earned their money in the design stage.
and they earned their money as a web designer.

are you seriously saying that if someone uses dream weaver then they aren't a real designer cause they aren't writing the code themselves, or their work is somehow less worthy than yours?

(personally I can't use dream weaver, -i find it confusing).

but that doesn't take away from people who can conceptualise and visualise a design and actually make it happen.
I personally find "designing" a site a lot harder than making a site.
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Old 03-09-2009, 06:11 PM   #80
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root - You do bring up some very good points... Though I personally am not one who draws out my design before doing it... I think about what I want it to look like and I do it... The reason why I don't care about wasting the time, is 1, I never did a table-less design before this one, in college (5 years ago[I started at 16 ended at 18]), we touched on divs, but the majority of both the intro and advanced web development classes were based around table designs... So the main aspect of this draft of the site was to get the hang of using divs and the different ways to make the design with CSS2, I have always been good with CSS, but hadn't touched on CSS2... Then I came to find out that Internet Explorer didn't support CSS2, so I figured well I might as well throw something up... Your right I don't plan to put any of that in a portfolio... Also at the start of this website is when I started with both Php, and MySQL, so most of it has been more of a learning experience more so then anything, the actual design of it all wasn't much of a worry for me... Not to mention the fact that my template is rendered by php... (also the design I have up is more for fluidy then to seem like an actual design [this way rather someone has 600x400 display, or 1200x 1000 {or what ever it would be} it will show up without actually seeing any kind of real design])

I do like the sites you recommended me, though I haven't taken a real good look at them yet...

With tabled designs, I don't actually have to think about them to do it... Though if I come to something I can't quiet picture in my head, or can't quiet figure out in my head; then I do the same thing, draw it out, and work from head to toe... With table-less designs, I have always been able to figure it out, but I wasn't that great with it, so I figured what the hell, might as well get some experience with it... So as to the waste of time... I wasted more time sitting in college not learning anything, then I did building that site, actually learning something, difference is about 2 thousand bucks lol...

The re-vision of the website, again I am going to do two different designs, and again I do plan to have it more fluid then anything, some of it has been a bit of a challenge cause some of the pages may range from a few lines of text to the use of two blob columns in my database... So I didn't have much of a choice but to do a fluid design that could change the size if needed... (the table-less design was easier then the tabled lol)... I also want a site that can be used on pretty much any browser... So this design has proven to work for nearly every browser out there... (there is a web site if I could remember it now, that will show you what the site looks like, in nearly any browser and display...) Also my forum if you have taken a look at it, isn't the typical layout, or anything... One thing I do really like, but is also a challenge cause when I go to incorporate signatures and avatars ect... I am going to have to re-vamp that design as well...

See one thing I have always wanted to do, is to have my own community website and forum, except I have seen many forums and community websites, and the majority of them are the same basic type of design... Which as I said before not something I want... I never thought about just doing it and being done, I have always known that if I want it to look and feel the way I want it to... It is going to take a lot of time... Not to mention I also want to do an Open Source section, this way designers and programmers, can put things up to share with the world, somewhat like a portfolio... Also I am doing a clientele section, this way those same designers and programmers can keep track of clients, projects, payments, expenses and their open source projects as well... I don't really want to charge anyone for it, but I also need to make some sort of balance between my time, internet, and space... This is why the re-vision has been taking so long, I want to get that out of the way, and then do the open source, and then the re-vision... But with a lot of lack of time, plus the whole needing of personal time at times... has put a lot of time out the window for it all...

The whole thing about taking money for a project done through a program... is more of a moral thing for me... I (as said before) am a very big open source kind of guy, and I think that services that should be free or at least cheap that are being over priced due to a lot of greedy people is an outrage. These people charge an arm a leg for a project that was done with a program... (though yes not the case with esl but still)... And personally I have not found a single program that doesn't screw the code up somewhere, yes it may provide a nice design, but that doesn't mean it is coded well... Though I don't mean to say that cause someone uses a program doesn't mean they are a designer... It simply means they are not a coder, or programmer... But it still disgusts me when someone charges for a project done up with a program... I mean seriously if I had taken that client I would have charged him probably 150 for that site... even if he said 300, I wouldn't take that much for something so simplistic...

Also just one last note... If I had an actual team of people working with me, I would too care about noting my code, but seeing as it is just me doing the coding... There really isn't much reason too... The only other person I have helping me is my best friend who keeps saying he is going to make me an image template, but yet still hasn't gotten it to me...
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