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Old 07-26-2005, 12:11 PM   #31
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Haha, people always comment on the Rush I give them Haha.
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Old 07-26-2005, 03:23 PM   #32
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Default Re: Microsoft names new system Vista

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Originally Posted by Lord Kalthorn
Significant Marketshare depends on what you think is significant. As far as I am aware, Firefox has more Marketshare in Browsers than all Linux Distributions have in Operating Systems On a Consumer Level of course, and that is what drives Spyware, Virus, Trojan Coders.
On a consumer level maybe, but look into the server market. In fact microsoft's own IIS is in the minority but still has more exploits than Apache.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Kalthorn
The very fact that Linux does have problems, with a Statistically insignificant userbase of mostly Technical Users who should know how to clean their Computers is a sign that Windows is far more secure.
Exactly what "problems" are you speaking of? In Linux I assure you, there is no reason to "clean their computers" spyware doesn't exist in linux. Even if spyware did exist in Linux, it wouldn't be effective because in Linux users don't run as root as they do in windows.

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Originally Posted by Lord Kalthorn
You talk of problems with Windows, they are occouring on Computers run by people who can't use a Calculator and type with one finger. I have already said, I have never had a problem with Windows, nobody I know has ever had a problem with Windows and some of them are pretty useless with Computers.
One word, ActiveX.

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Originally Posted by Lord Kalthorn
The Internet has changed purely in useage and bandwidth, more people use it, practicaly all Windows PCs are on the Internet, a lot al the time on Broadband. Before XP, that would be crazy. There are so many more ways to get a Virus now that would not have been thought of when they built XP in 99/2000.
...You would think M$ with all the resources in the world, could do a better job though...They need to re-write windows completely, and why not? Apple did it with OSX. If M$ did this it would affect them in the short term yes, but in the long term it would deeply benefit microsoft and all it's users.
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Old 07-26-2005, 03:50 PM   #33
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MacOSX is a delight, I think it's wonderful. Pity I can't say the same about previous MacOS versions, the internal working of MacOS9 were no better, if not worse, than Windows 95. Apple had to rewrite it all.

But I do agree Windows is getting too similar these days. Maybe they should rewrite Blackcomb from scratch? It's due in about 2011, not accounting for delays, so there's plenty of time.

The Windows kernel, I believe, was reworked big style for Windows 2000, and XP is built on the same foundations.

Win9x (95, 98, 98SE and ME) wasn't so good, it really began to show its age by the time the new Millennium came round.

So yes, Microsoft are still working to update their kernels etc., and Windows Vista should be a big improvement still. You need to rewrite parts of the original code in order to make the new stuff work, there's no two ways about it.

I could go on all night, but it'd get boring.
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Old 07-26-2005, 04:58 PM   #34
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Default Re: Microsoft names new system Vista

Mac OSX did rewrite their Kernal from Scratch, and most of the Code, but not all, and they still had to have it doing most of the same stuff, and it is still as unstable as ever. The situation Mac was in with OS9 was dreadful, Windows isn't in that situation and hence would not feel such a need. Indeed there is not such a need. Windows handles ten times the users, with a hundred times the incompetence, and still has no notable issues. Any issues people bring up, and theorectical issues. The kernal is bloated, the code is old, it is buggy. Any Bugs are sorted when they become problematic, so the bugs don't matter, a lot of the best code in all programs is the oldest, and you can't have an Operating System like XP without a big Kernal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by x0r515t
On a consumer level maybe, but look into the server market. In fact microsoft's own IIS is in the minority but still has more exploits than Apache.
In theory, I have seen a good number of well written well done papers by highly respected people that say otherwise between a Windows 2003 Server System and a Red Hat Enterprise System.

Quote:
Originally Posted by x0r515t
Exactly what "problems" are you speaking of? In Linux I assure you, there is no reason to "clean their computers" spyware doesn't exist in linux. Even if spyware did exist in Linux, it wouldn't be effective because in Linux users don't run as root as they do in windows.
Well I believe you then But I can say the same of my Windows, and you would not take that as true for all Windows Systems. There are problems with Linux, there are problems with Windows. People don't run Windows in Administrator because the installer sets up accounts for them. Short of a brand new installation, where the user is competent enough to install Windows themselves and hence knows the risks, you don't run in Adminisrator. In Linux however, it installs into Root does it not? The user then has to sort of out. My granny doesn't run in Administrator on Windows without me doing anything, but she'd be running on Root in Linux.

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Originally Posted by x0r515t
One word, ActiveX.
ActiveX is an amazing use of Coding over the Internet. The things you can do with ActiveX are amazing and you have to be on some seriously low brow sites to get a problem with it. Even then, with SP2, it will ask to install the ActiveX Content. Beyond that point, it is your fault. Rather have the decision, than use a browser that doesn't even give you the choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by x0r515t
...You would think M$ with all the resources in the world, could do a better job though...They need to re-write windows completely, and why not? Apple did it with OSX. If M$ did this it would affect them in the short term yes, but in the long term it would deeply benefit microsoft and all it's users.
You would think, supporting Linux as you do, that it is not money that makes an Operating System good, but expertise. Rewritting the code would involve, as I said, writing hundreds of millions of lines of code from scratch. Rather clean it up every new build, that rewrite it again and involve new bugs. There will always be bugs, rewritting won't sort that out, Linux has Bugs, code always does. Why make new code that has new bugs to clean, more new bugs, when you've spent ten years cleaning up a set of code already.
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Old 07-26-2005, 07:48 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Kalthorn
Mac OSX did rewrite their Kernal from Scratch, and most of the Code, but not all, and they still had to have it doing most of the same stuff, and it is still as unstable as ever.
Well since saying things like "still as unstable as ever" is based purely on opinion, I will ignore that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Kalthorn
Windows handles ten times the users, with a hundred times the incompetence, and still has no notable issues. Any issues people bring up, and theorectical issues.
I wouldn't say there are no noticeable issues with windows because there are. The way spyware developers have manipulated windows with such huge success is a perfect example. There is a reason why other browsers such as Firefox do not suffer from spyware like IE does. It doesn't have to do with the popularity either really. Sure if FF was more popular more people would try and write spyware for it of course. But my point is that if the spyware developers were to do this, they would have to find a whole new means of distributing spyware since FF does not feature ActiveX like IE does, and without ActiveX you don't get about 90% of the spyware out there today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Kalthorn
In theory, I have seen a good number of well written well done papers by highly respected people that say otherwise between a Windows 2003 Server System and a Red Hat Enterprise System.

Ok, well I was talking about IIS/Apache. And also, I as well have seen many reports that say the exact opposite. Apache has beat IIS in many areas, and not only in security, but also performance. Of course, I'm sure you've seen tests done favoring IIS/windows. Let's just forget about this because we're not going to get anywhere debating this.


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Originally Posted by Lord Kalthorn
In Linux however, it installs into Root does it not? The user then has to sort of out. My granny doesn't run in Administrator on Windows without me doing anything, but she'd be running on Root in Linux.
That highly depends on the distribution. Some distro's install the base system with just one user; root. However, distro's like these just assume your smart enough to add a user account, distro's that behave this way usually are aimed more at the technical users anyways. The distro's that are aimed more at the beginners usually will ask you in the installer to create a normal user account. Which this brings up a thought, in windows many apps require you to run as root do they not? You see windows is designed to run as root whereas Unix is not. I mean user permissions in windows are pretty terrible if you ask me. In XP you have two choices for a user either "limited" or "administrator" that doesn't leave much room for customization. What if I want to give one limited user access to a specified folder in my / but not all limited users? Well in *nix I can use the chmod command, but in windows XP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Kalthorn
You would think, supporting Linux as you do, that it is not money that makes an Operating System good, but expertise.
Well that's just my point. Since MS seems to be lacking these days, you would figure they would just hire a bunch of new-experienced programmers and make windows great...but no they don't.
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Old 07-27-2005, 08:04 AM   #36
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Default Re: Microsoft names new system Vista

The machine next to me has the following error:

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Originally Posted by Error
STOP: c000021a {Fatal System Error}
The Windows Logon Process system process terminated unexpectedly
with a status of 0xc0000005 (0x00000000 0x00000000).
The system has been shut down.

If this is the first time you've seen this Stop error screen,
restart your computer. If this screen appears again, follow
these steps:

Check to make sure any new hardware or software is properly installed.
If this is a new installation, ask your hardware or software manufacturer
for any Windows 2000 updates you might need.

If problems continue, disable or remove any newly installed hardware
or software. Disable BIOS memory options such as caching or shadowing.
If you need to use Safe Mode to remove or disable components, restart
your computer, press F8 to select Advance Startup Options, and then
select Safe Mode.

Refer to your Getting Started manual for more information on
troubleshooting Stop errors.
See, Windows crashed because of its own component which was made by Microsoft and installed by default. Microsoft programmers now proven INFERIOR!
MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 07-27-2005, 03:57 PM   #37
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Default Re: Microsoft names new system Vista

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Well since saying things like "still as unstable as ever" is based purely on opinion, I will ignore that.
Haha, lots of people comment on the stability of Mac; and that is in a situation where the Hardware rarely changes at all

Quote:
Originally Posted by x0r515t
I wouldn't say there are no noticeable issues with windows because there are. The way spyware developers have manipulated windows with such huge success is a perfect example. There is a reason why other browsers such as Firefox do not suffer from spyware like IE does. It doesn't have to do with the popularity either really. Sure if FF was more popular more people would try and write spyware for it of course. But my point is that if the spyware developers were to do this, they would have to find a whole new means of distributing spyware since FF does not feature ActiveX like IE does, and without ActiveX you don't get about 90% of the spyware out there today.
If enough smart people put their minds to something, even the best Code can be manipulated, and there are a lot of people interested in Spyware and Viruses. Internet Explorer has found the middle ground, sometimes I consider whether the only reason Firefox doesn't have ActiveX support is because it is Microsoft, or because they cannot build a Browser to support it in the first place. Basically though, Internet Explorer is free from bad ActiveX because you have to tell it to Install the Content. It is exactly the same as what Firefox does, doesn't run it, but allows you too if you want it to. Is that not better than stopping it completely?

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Originally Posted by x0r515t
Ok, well I was talking about IIS/Apache. And also, I as well have seen many reports that say the exact opposite. Apache has beat IIS in many areas, and not only in security, but also performance. Of course, I'm sure you've seen tests done favoring IIS/windows. Let's just forget about this because we're not going to get anywhere debating this.
Even I believe the Internet is Free, I would not debate IIS over Apache, because while IIS is probably better () it is not free.

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Originally Posted by x0r515t
That highly depends on the distribution. Some distro's install the base system with just one user; root. However, distro's like these just assume your smart enough to add a user account, distro's that behave this way usually are aimed more at the technical users anyways. The distro's that are aimed more at the beginners usually will ask you in the installer to create a normal user account. Which this brings up a thought, in windows many apps require you to run as root do they not? You see windows is designed to run as root whereas Unix is not. I mean user permissions in windows are pretty terrible if you ask me. In XP you have two choices for a user either "limited" or "administrator" that doesn't leave much room for customization. What if I want to give one limited user access to a specified folder in my / but not all limited users? Well in *nix I can use the chmod command, but in windows XP?
Not many, in fact very few. With Vista indeed, they will never ask for that, only very complicated Administration work will in that case. This is a flaw in XP in functionality over security. At the time of designing, they did not consider a way around that problem. Personally I would choose Functionality over Security any day, because if you satrifice usage you are giving in to the people who write the Viruses, you don't use a Computer to be Secure, you use one to be Functional.

If it is a '*nix' Function, it has obviously not be put in for Consumers but for Servers, Server 2003 can do it for instance, but Linux cannot take credit for a '*nix' function, Sun do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by x0r515t
Well that's just my point. Since MS seems to be lacking these days, you would figure they would just hire a bunch of new-experienced programmers and make windows great...but no they don't.
A lot of 'new-experienced' programmers would not work for Microsoft whatever they paid them, a good number more would but would then use that money to help Open-Source, which in my view at least is worse than the fore. Only a few, the ones they do actually get working for them, would work as people of Microsoft. It is not greatness though, a lot of great people are at Microsoft, some of the best, but numbers, there are 25 thousand people at Microsoft Redmond, how many people work on one Distibution over its full course of life, even adding just a bit of Code?
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Old 07-27-2005, 06:50 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Kalthorn
sometimes I consider whether the only reason Firefox doesn't have ActiveX support is because it is Microsoft, or because they cannot build a Browser to support it in the first place.
I'm pretty sure they made that decision to eliminate the spyware problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Kalthorn
Not many, in fact very few. With Vista indeed, they will never ask for that, only very complicated Administration work will in that case. This is a flaw in XP in functionality over security. At the time of designing, they did not consider a way around that problem. Personally I would choose Functionality over Security any day, because if you satrifice usage you are giving in to the people who write the Viruses, you don't use a Computer to be Secure, you use one to be Functional.

If it is a '*nix' Function, it has obviously not be put in for Consumers but for Servers, Server 2003 can do it for instance, but Linux cannot take credit for a '*nix' function, Sun do.
I never really said Linux can take credit for that, I was merely pointing out the advantages of the unix interface over windows. Since Linux is my favorite *nix environment, I mentioned chmod for Linux, of course I realize you could also use this method in any *nix like FreeBSD, and Solaris I was just talking about Linux thats all. If you ask me, Linux has both functionality and security.

What really gets me about windows is it's simplicity in design really. In windows I feel "locked in" if you will, for instance if you want to add new hardware to your system, you will have to deal with reseting your winXP activation which is a huge pain. Or say you have a legal copy of winXP so you install it, but then decide you want to install it on a different PC instead of the PC you just installed and registered it on, you won't be able to though because that copy of XP will already be "locked in" to that PC's hardware even if it's not currently installed, and you will have to call MS and explain things in hopes they will "unregister" your copy of XP so you can install it on the machine you wanted. That just seems like way to much "permission seeking" for a software that I apparently "own". The lack of customization and choice in the windows world can be bothersome as well. For example, you have one choice of a window manager; explorer, with a nice fisher price interface. What I also like about Linux is that when I use it, I seem to learn new things, things I wouldn't learn in windows, like programming/code manipulation. Now that I use Linux I actually find it somewhat interesting to take the source code of an app and play around with it and customize it to my liking, then complile it. So I guess I just don't like the way things are done in the windows world, I don't need my OS to hold my hand through every task.
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Old 07-28-2005, 03:37 PM   #39
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Default Re: Microsoft names new system Vista

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I'm pretty sure they made that decision to eliminate the spyware problem.
Perhaps, but if they wanted to get rid of the spyware problem, and truely had their users in mind, they would have implemented a system like Internet Explorer and allowed the good bits of ActiveX, without the bad bits. They have shot themselves in the foot by not doing this as a lot of good sites use ActiveX, and one of the sites that most Windows users have to go on. Hence making you need Internet Explorer if you want to use Firefox.

Quote:
Originally Posted by x0r515t
I never really said Linux can take credit for that, I was merely pointing out the advantages of the unix interface over windows. Since Linux is my favorite *nix environment, I mentioned chmod for Linux, of course I realize you could also use this method in any *nix like FreeBSD, and Solaris I was just talking about Linux thats all. If you ask me, Linux has both functionality and security.
Windows has both, but it is quantities of either which make it the perfect combination, if you were asking me, I would say Linux has not got enough Functionality. But most of that isn't down to having too much security - its down to not having it in the first place

Quote:
Originally Posted by x0r515t
What really gets me about windows is it's simplicity in design really. In windows I feel "locked in" if you will, for instance if you want to add new hardware to your system, you will have to deal with reseting your winXP activation which is a huge pain. Or say you have a legal copy of winXP so you install it, but then decide you want to install it on a different PC instead of the PC you just installed and registered it on, you won't be able to though because that copy of XP will already be "locked in" to that PC's hardware even if it's not currently installed, and you will have to call MS and explain things in hopes they will "unregister" your copy of XP so you can install it on the machine you wanted. That just seems like way to much "permission seeking" for a software that I apparently "own".
It is after all, proprietory Software, you rent it off Microsoft, you do not own it. This is the same as all proprietory Software. Most people tell you good things about Microsoft Support, and while it may seem like a bother to you, it would not need to happen if people did not make a point of using Single Licence Software on two machines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by x0r515t
The lack of customization and choice in the windows world can be bothersome as well. For example, you have one choice of a window manager; explorer, with a nice fisher price interface. What I also like about Linux is that when I use it, I seem to learn new things, things I wouldn't learn in windows, like programming/code manipulation. Now that I use Linux I actually find it somewhat interesting to take the source code of an app and play around with it and customize it to my liking, then complile it. So I guess I just don't like the way things are done in the windows world, I don't need my OS to hold my hand through every task.
WindowsBlinds is an amazing piece of Software, there are thousands of themes you can download freely. if you want to customize it further, you can make you own.

I would imagine out of all the people who use Computers, having to learn while using it is something very few actually want to use a Computer for. You use a computer to do a task, the Operating System allows you to do that task without any problems. That is the reason for its being. You don't want to sit down to write a Letter, and have to learn something to use it. You don't want to open a program, find you don't like it, and reprogram it, even if you could do that, why would you want to? You want to remodel it, from the Interface, like you would Visual Studio or Office, not Reprogram it and find then you don't have time to write the letter.
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Old 07-28-2005, 04:39 PM   #40
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Default Re: Microsoft names new system Vista

Quote:
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Perhaps, but if they wanted to get rid of the spyware problem, and truely had their users in mind, they would have implemented a system like Internet Explorer and allowed the good bits of ActiveX, without the bad bits. They have shot themselves in the foot by not doing this as a lot of good sites use ActiveX, and one of the sites that most Windows users have to go on. Hence making you need Internet Explorer if you want to use Firefox.
List me a respected popular site that requires ActiveX other than a microsoft sponsored site like windows update. Sites that actually require ActiveX are very rare, and I have yet to find one. It is actually MS that is shooting themselfes in the foot with IE not being standards compliant. Just go ask a web designer about IE almost all of them will hate IE because it doesn't support standards, and they constantly have to tweak their sites so IE will render their page(s) correctly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Kalthorn
Windows has both, but it is quantities of either which make it the perfect combination, if you were asking me, I would say Linux has not got enough Functionality. But most of that isn't down to having too much security - its down to not having it in the first place
Linux has to have something right since it's ran on more and more supercomputers every year. Not to mention the constant server growth. Lord Kalthorn, have you ever even tried Linux?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Kalthorn
It is after all, proprietory Software, you rent it off Microsoft, you do not own it.
So after spending your hard earned cash on windows; "you don't even own it" that sounds alright to you? You are fine with the fact that M$ controls and owns your PC???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Kalthorn
I would imagine out of all the people who use Computers, having to learn while using it is something very few actually want to use a Computer for. You use a computer to do a task, the Operating System allows you to do that task without any problems. That is the reason for its being. You don't want to sit down to write a Letter, and have to learn something to use it. You don't want to open a program, find you don't like it, and reprogram it, even if you could do that, why would you want to? You want to remodel it, from the Interface, like you would Visual Studio or Office, not Reprogram it and find then you don't have time to write the letter.
Yes, agreed windows does a very nice job of making sure the user doesn't have to learn/know anything about the OS. But in Linux you can have both. If you use Linux you don't have to get to know everything behind the scenes of the OS either if you don't want to. You can just use KDE with a firefox icon on the desktop that you can just double click to open to get to the internet. But for the people that do want to get to know how things work "behind the scenes" in Linux, the doors are open to them. I think that is a significant difference.
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