Go Back   Computer Forums > Welcome To Computer Forums .org > Social Lounge | Off Topic
Click Here to Login
Join Computer forums Today


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-09-2011, 05:11 PM   #41
Fully Optimized
 
~Darkseeker~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Welwyn Garden City, United Kingdom
Posts: 2,494
Default Re: What do you think of christianity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iPwn View Post
Okay okay, but whoever wrote the 'checkmate' quote is also clearly stupid. Again, if one held the power to resurrect a life, why interrupt the experiment for some discomfort? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the everything we will ever experience in life is a matter of comfort, because a woman being raped is by no means an acceptable loss. If, however, for that tragedy, the same woman was to live forever as a perfect being, how does that weigh out? Where do the scales tip? I'm not trying to disprove what you believe Darkseeker, simply provide a little more clarification on what I believe. I accept that it's very possible that I'm wrong, no doubt in my mind that I could be barking up the wrong tree for a little bit of mental security when considering my demise.

As for the comment about us coming from two people and being deformed. Adam and Eve ( are believed to have) lived for 900+ years as they were once perfect, their offspring therefore did not suffer the same deformities we now see in inbreeding. The earth was then populated ubiquitously when man attempted to build a tower to the heavens and was thus made to speak different languages and scatter, thus giving us the unique race traits we now have. Just thought I'd throw that out there...
I respect you for not shrugging the argument off as most local christians would if confronted the way i just confronted you guys. I see your point anyway. Good Point well made.

Either argument (Evolution Vs. Creation) looks far-fetched from the opposition's point-of-view. Evolution seems far-fetched if you have been brought up with stories of creation, where as to me, having being brought up to be ignorant of the supernatural, evolution works and creation seems far fetched. Like most things, i guess it's a matter of perspective.
__________________

__________________
EVGA SLI Micro Z68 // Intel i5-2500k @ 4.4GHz // 8GB Corsair Vengeance 1866MHz // Overclocked ASUS GTX 660 Ti // Corsair Carbide SPEC-03 // Kingston Hyper-X 120GB // 2TB WD Green + 500GB WD Black
#JC4PM
~Darkseeker~ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2011, 08:41 PM   #42
..m.0,0.m..
Site Team
 
iPwn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 3,870
Default Re: What do you think of christianity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Darkseeker~ View Post
Either argument (Evolution Vs. Creation) looks far-fetched from the opposition's point-of-view. Evolution seems far-fetched if you have been brought up with stories of creation, where as to me, having being brought up to be ignorant of the supernatural, evolution works and creation seems far fetched. Like most things, i guess it's a matter of perspective.
We had a customer come into chat with one of our female representatives. I'm not going to mention of which religious affiliation he was, but he absolutely refused to give the female any information regarding his issue as "Your female brain is too small for my issue" and then went on to say that this belief came from a strict upbringing. I could probably debate with him for hours and neither of us would change our beliefs. That's one of the most interesting things, is simply, as humans, we do have free will to believe whatever we would like. Whether we believe the Universe came about by chance or we believe that the Universe came about by grand design. Within those belief categories, there's an infinite amount of different beliefs... what God's name is, if Jesus was God, if Mary is God, if Allah is God, Buddha... the list goes on.

My point is simply that... you're right... the debate between Creationism or Evolution is not a winning debate for either side. In fact, the debate between two Christians of different affiliations is not a win-able debate. People will believe what they believe and rarely will you have evidence for either side that converts one to either belief. It is, however, an interesting debate.

=Edit=
So I watched the two videos that you posted (and should have made this comment earlier) and it's pretty interesting. While the Big Bang theory video does not contradict a creator (as a large displacement of energy and matter could have been used) and neither does the evolution video (as adaptation is key in any environment and could have also been by design), I'm still (and this goes back to both of our points earlier) of the same belief, that there is a single creator.

It's a simple fact that the Universe is expanding or moving outwards supporting the theory that it started in a central location and 'exploded'. It's a simple fact that adaptation is real. It's hard, however, to believe that out of nothing, and I mean no life, came a single celled organism that was very complex. While doing a Google search for Darwin's own words regarding the dissolution of his theory, I came across this article. It basically speaks of irreducible complexity, and how if all the parts are not there, the system will not function. Making the system a single part at a time would actually hinder the survival of the species and natural selection would no longer favor that organism. This goes back to the point I made about the Human eye. With so many parts, and the eye not functioning without one single part, it's hard to believe that the species planned for the next umpteen evolutionary phases.

The article puts it much better than I just did and if you'd like to have a read, here's the link: http://www.ideacenter.org/contentmgr...ils.php/id/840

It makes an interesting point. However, I do remember my 8th grade science teacher mentioning that, if in crisis, a species could spontaneously make several modifications within a short period of time to survive. This would seem to contradict my belief that an organism would be unable to 'plan' it's evolutionary phases in order to create a new 'irreducibly complex' survival system or bodily feature.

The one thing I don't understand, however, is how it started on day one. How did life begin? That's the real question as you can find proof for both God and Evolution in nature today, but the source of life and this great planet of diverse beings... what triggered the original complex organism, single celled structure, to come into existence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenAtari View Post
There was nothing, there was nothing, there was a god, there was earth, and there were people with oddly a lot of pre-human fossils.
I've must have missed a few scenes.
Indeed. The theory of creation doesn't discount the creation of prehistoric life forms. The bible merely starts out as a story* when humans were created. If you had the power to create something, wouldn't you practice a little before making your masterpiece? Not saying the God needed 'practice' but you understand my point.

Although not specifically mentioned, this also raises the question of radiocarbon dating. Now, don't quote me on this because this is something I read a LONG time ago and my memory of is very vague. A theory regarding the radiocarbon dating and use of C14 to determine age could have been drastically flawed by the introduction of water in the atmosphere. The belief is that prior to the flood, the water in the oceans and polar caps was actually all in the atmosphere making the earth a greenhouse of sorts. This impacted the amount of C14 contained in 'prehistoric' fossils due to the way that the carbon isotope is introduced into the elements. Again, please don't quote that as it's a fraction of a theory I read about a very long time ago, so please feel free to troll on that.

* Yes, I did say story, so quote that word to your hearts content and miss the rest of the message.
__________________

__________________
Me: You'd think as the dominant species we wouldn't be so effing stupid.
J: We're just intelligent enough to be completely effing stupid.
iPwn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2011, 02:13 AM   #43
Golden Master
 
sniperviper21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 5,438
Default Re: What do you think of christianity?

humans will not evolve any more then we have by any major amount due to our technology taking place of the need to evolve past our current state.

if you fallow me.
__________________
You got to have a Fiddle in the band!
sniperviper21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2011, 03:10 AM   #44
In Runtime
 
BrokenAtari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 219
Default Re: What do you think of christianity?

"Truth is elusive to those who refuse to see with both eyes."
"...then did Tilius say to the people of the low plains: seek not the wickedness amongst your neighbors, lest it find purchase in your own house."
"Andras chose to hunt the lion and was eaten by his prey."
__________________
Cisco Network Fundamentals Certified
Cisco Routing Protocols and Concepts Certified
BrokenAtari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2011, 12:12 PM   #45
Site Team
 
root's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,001
Default Re: What do you think of christianity?

Quote:
why interrupt the experiment for some discomfort?
this whole experiment idea is a pretty weak argument to the lack of a compassionate omnipresence.

If anything it proves the point.
if I take a cage full of animals and infect them with some disease, I clearly have no compassion or respect for the creatures I'm experimenting with.

which proves the point of the atheism quote, either there is a God, and said god has no compassion or love for the people, or there just is no God.

if indeed there is a God then clearly said God is not a loving God, which kinda disproves most of the new testaments message of a compassionate God.

Quote:
Adam and Eve ( are believed to have) lived for 900+ years as they were once perfect, their offspring therefore did not suffer the same deformities we now see in inbreeding.
you don't think that's kind of contradictory? Adam Eve were perfect, and so was their offspring, and that offspring was perfect because Adam and Eve were perfect, why are these perfect genes not still here why does inbreeding lead to "imperfect" genetic offspring today? if this perfection was able to pass down from Adam and eve through their two sons, then be passed down again through intergenerational interbreeding to create other people not genetically malformed, then why no today?

the basic facts (if there are any in this argument) is that it just couldn't have happened. at least not in the way that you describe.
incest it's self doesn't provide genetic mutation, it just allows genes that would otherwise be recessive to become dominant. if adam and eve were genetically perfect then they could (and their offspring could) interbreed as much as they liked. but if that were the case there would still be no mutations today.

Quote:
The earth was then populated ubiquitously when man attempted to build a tower to the heavens and was thus made to speak different languages and scatter, thus giving us the unique race traits we now have. Just thought I'd throw that out there...
which brings us to the real crux of what I hate about religion. the there was one true race argument. which has been used time and time again by severely bad people.

Quote:
It's hard, however, to believe that out of nothing, and I mean no life, came a single celled organism that was very complex.
hard to believe, but perfectly possible, in fact scientists have created their own life, all you need are the right molecules (which form naturally as simple molecules) and a whole bunch of energy.
(they've smashed simple molecules in a large particle accelerator in some university (Caltech) and created complex molecules that scientists say are complex enough to be the single celled organisms from which life could have started. (this is explained in an episode of "through the wormhole")
How Did We Get Here : Through the Wormhole : Science Channel I haven't bothered looking for the video, but there are pictures with some explanation of what's going on.


Quote:
Indeed. The theory of creation doesn't discount the creation of prehistoric life forms. The bible merely starts out as a story* when humans were created. If you had the power to create something, wouldn't you practice a little before making your masterpiece? Not saying the God needed 'practice' but you understand my point.
I'm not picking on you,

but this is the other thing that gets me about religion.
in the beginning someone who is religious will say that the bible is the word of God, and it's true.
in the bible God made everything in seven days up to and including man.

then someone comes along and says what about dinosaurs, we know that they were about and we say before man existed.
then someone points to some obscure point in the bible, and says that dinosaurs feature in the bible.

someone says what about carbon dating we know that they were about before man, what about fossils that show evolution over millions of years.
and the argument always comes back that it's either fake, or God made it that way to test us.

then inconsistencies are pointed out in the bible.
and suddenly the bible isn't the word of God, the bible is actually the message or God written by man, and because it's written by man it is therefore prone to typographical mistakes. or mistranslations, or perhaps the gospels were having a bad day.



to me, the cold hard facts of religion in general (not just Christianity) is this.

A long time ago, we knew nothing, literally nothing, we had no idea why it rained, or why it didn't rain, we didn't know why there was lightening, or indeed even why the sun went down at night and the moon came up. we had no idea about either solar or lunar eclipses, why there were stars in the sky. we didn't know why there were tides, how to make fire, or how we got here.

To stop everyone sitting around wondering about all these things, somebody who was very clever decided to make up a story to explain it all.

so too much rain was a punishment from a supreme being.
too much sun was a punishment from an supreme being.
disease was a punishment from a supreme being,
basically there were Gods and they messed about with us, seemingly for fun.

we could see fires burning after lightening strikes.

one day man figured out how to make fire, other men are in awe of this so they say that s/he must have stolen it from the Gods.

nowadays we dismiss Greek mythology as a bunch of fairy tales. nobody climbed a mountain to steal fire.
we got the knowledge of how to do things because two dudes ate an apple.

anyway, I'll stop digressing.
someone made up a story, there was a supreme being that could punish us at will, all we have to do is keep said supreme being happy by worshipping the supreme being...

the trouble is that as we've gained more knowledge as a species, we have started to realise.
fire is caused by heat/friction and can easily be made.
the earth revolves around the sun, not the other way around.
there is fossil records that support evolution. as opposed to being created as is now.
there are successful experiments that support the theories of how life was created.
we can see weather patterns and know about seasons.
we know why the nights get shorter and don't sacrifice animals (or people) to earth goddesses any more at solstices.

The reason that religion is struggling so much in today's world is that more and more we are able to answer the difficult questions that previously were so big that a supreme being creator was not just the most likely explanation, but the ONLY explanation imaginable, we are now starting to be able to understand and answer for ourselves without the need for religion.

To answer the original question of the thread "what do you think of Christianity"

I think of Christianity the same way I think of Roman fables and Greek mythology. it's a load of stories made up by man to explain the impossible.

that is not to say that it's pointless though.

the stories of the bible contain a guide to how a person should live their life, not necessarily in a God fearing or worshipping way, but how as a society we should act such that we can all get the most benefit an enjoyment out of it.

The stories and explanations of the origins of life and species provide comfortable answers to difficult questions.

The stories of the bible provide comfortable answers to questions of what happens when we die.

Not just Christianity but all religions provide guides for life. and most religious practices have a purpose...

to look at the Jewish faith for example.
you're living in a dessert it's hot it's sweaty and the water to wash is likely unavailable. -circumcision is a good practice in this instance, it provides an answer to a problem. it stops people becoming sick through infections "down there" in a time when hygiene was impossible to be good.

Not eating pork is another good point in some countries, pigs do live in filthy conditions (if they are allowed to). there are texts that say that you should wash your hands after touching the flesh of a pig. a brilliant practice to quell the spread of diseases such as cholera.

From Christianity,
Even going to church on Sundays has a real practical purpose, it ensure community cohesion, people get together they talk and the socialise. (perhaps this is more important than ever in today's society!)

From the Muslim faith, not worshipping false gods or idols. if everyone follows the same religion then there is only one moral code, not several.

From practically all religions, not having sex with animals, animals carry disease for a start and they can't tell you that they have problems in that way. also it would from a moral standpoint not be good to take advantage of an animal that couldn't say no.

again from most or all religion, not having sex with your relatives. this is covered amply above with the idea of genetic mutations and causing disabilities.


my point, religion has two purposes,
1 to explain the unexplainable
2, to cause us to live good lives and be good to each other.

the first point of religion is becoming less and less important as time goes on and we are able to explain more.
the second point is a bit messed up by the amount of religions that are intolerant of each other. and the second point of religion is ignored more and more in today's society as religious people seem to scramble to put more and more weight of religion onto the first point.

the second point of religion, (to me) is the most important.
not matter how unpalatable "control of the masses" is to say, religion is very good at controlling masses, and masses need to be controlled.
__________________
I didn’t fight my way to the top of the food chain to be a vegetarian…
Im sick of people saying 'dont waste paper'. If trees wanted to live, they'd all carry guns.
"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; The inherent vice of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."
root is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2011, 12:51 PM   #46
Site Team
 
berry120's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: England, UK
Posts: 3,425
Default Re: What do you think of christianity?

I'm going to come at this from a slightly different angle.

Let me start by saying yes, I'm a Christian. I'm also a very down to earth, sceptical guy that believes in testing things, and the whole cheesy Christian thing is not my cup of tea whatsoever. I get a tad annoyed by Christians who run around saying God makes everything easy for you, I'm not a guy you'll see posting bible verses on Facebook every other day, and I get rather frustrated whenever any fake story like "they've found Noah's ark!" comes up and every other Christian seems to latch onto it as a so called proof of their faith.

There's a lot of people that would criticise me for that. But I firmly believe it's far more biblical than the whole stereotypical cheesy Christian view of things. It's biblical to be sceptical and test things, Gideon asked enough times to check the angel visiting him really was an angel and not some satanic rip off.

Oh, and angels aren't fluffy things sitting on top of Christmas trees either. They're the commanders of God's army, huge guys with swords. Sort you'd be rather scared of if you didn't know what their intentions were. But anyway, I digress.

Similarly, there's mention in the bible all through about God executing judgement on people, sometimes in huge masses often with deadly results. Yes, Sodom had it coming for them, and God took various people's lives at different points throughout the bible. But there's also a lot in there to show that this was the last, the very last thing that he wanted to do. Much to Jonah's distaste he forgave a whole city where there was all sorts of unbelievable, horrific things going on - and they changed for the better. Lesser known, take Methuselah, Noah's grandad. Longest guy ever to live - whether you take the ages as literal or figurative doesn't really matter, the point is out of all the guys in the old testament he lived for the longest. One of the meanings of Methuselah? "When he dies, it shall be sent." And sure enough, Noah's grandad cops it and God sends a big flood to wipe everyone out. But it seems to me God's holding on before doing that. The guy lives the longest because he's a walking prophecy, and God wants to wait as long as possible before executing such judgement. Yes, you could argue it's coincidence. But there's things like this spread all about the bible, and taking ALL of them to be coincidence it does reach a point where the likelihood seems to get a bit silly.

On a similar note, the notion that when you're punished it's because you've done something wrong is completely, completely against Christianity and that's one reason that sets it apart from a lot of other religions. Which in my view makes a lot of sense from a world perspective, bad things happen to good people all the time. Take a look at Job. Great guy, doing all the right things but God lets Satan smack him down until he wishes he was dead. And whether you agree with God's motives for doing so or not, the point remains that some bad things happen and it's not our fault, and we'll never know why. Bit of a startling change from popular belief back then, and even now to a certain extent. And this theme doesn't just stay the same in the old testament, it continues right through to the new when people ask Jesus if bad things happen to people because they've done things wrong. He simply points out that everyone needs to get themselves sorted with God, the blind, the deaf and the physically healthy.

I could go on, from saying how well the prophecies that Isiah makes all line up into place perfectly when Jesus comes despite the fact no-one realised what they were really saying until later, to the fact Jesus predicted the temple would be completely destroyed shortly as it was, to the frankly revolutionary moral standpoint Jesus took in his day that subsequent research has shown is the best way to do things, to the many personal things that have happened to both me, my family and friends that have given me faith and confidence that Christianity and its message are true.

The bible isn't a U rated book, it's jammed with sex, violence, horrible situations as well as wonderful stories. And I think when we "dumb it down" into a cheesy Christian sunday school like thing that we so often do, of course it looks silly and loses a lot of its original meaning. And that in turn makes it something it's not, which loses its effectiveness drastically - there's so many misconceptions over Christianity that stem from within the church because of this.

My advice to anyone thinking about it would be to take the bible as it is, in a translation like the ESV that through a great deal of research aims to produce it as accurately as possible. Look at it from a life point of view rather than an angel in a fluffy cloud point of view. Because when I've done that, things have made a great deal more sense, as they would.
__________________
Save the whales, feed the hungry, free the mallocs.
berry120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2011, 01:01 PM   #47
Fully Optimized
 
~Darkseeker~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Welwyn Garden City, United Kingdom
Posts: 2,494
Default Re: What do you think of christianity?

My main problem with religion is that i'm very liberal. It confuses me how things like homosexuality and 'unusual' sexual practises were considered sodomy until the early 21st century in the states. I don't wish to rock the boat as to speak, but your very informative piece of writing is only from a christian point of view, and most polytheist religious people would disagree. Really, what i wanted to say was that although from a christian's point of view, it all makes perfect sense, from my point of view it just causes conflict. Other than because of religion, evolutionist theories haven't really caused many wars. There are also so many different denominations of christians, you end up contradicting each other's interpretations of biblical texts to the point at which it all becomes skewed and hard to be taken by for most people.
__________________
EVGA SLI Micro Z68 // Intel i5-2500k @ 4.4GHz // 8GB Corsair Vengeance 1866MHz // Overclocked ASUS GTX 660 Ti // Corsair Carbide SPEC-03 // Kingston Hyper-X 120GB // 2TB WD Green + 500GB WD Black
#JC4PM
~Darkseeker~ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2011, 01:20 PM   #48
Site Team
 
berry120's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: England, UK
Posts: 3,425
Default Re: What do you think of christianity?

Quote:
My main problem with religion is that i'm very liberal. It confuses me how things like homosexuality and 'unusual' sexual practises were considered sodomy until the early 21st century in the states.
People's views can change as they understand things differently and better, science does the same thing in that respect! There's also an element of fitting in with society - the same reason Paul was circumcised even though he then preached to others they didn't need to be.

Quote:
There are also so many different denominations of christians, you end up contradicting each other's interpretations of biblical texts to the point at which it all becomes skewed and hard to be taken by for most people.
Completely agree! I can't stand the fact you seem to have to say these days whether you're a methodist, anglican, baptist, evangelical etc. I just wish we could all call ourselves Christians, live with our different interpretations and stop arguing all the time. Which is the exact reason why I think if anyone's serious about giving it a chance, they need to do the work and the research themselves so they can come up with a view that they can't say has been biased.

Quote:
I don't wish to rock the boat as to speak, but your very informative piece of writing is only from a christian point of view.
Of course, no argument there. Then again, any piece of writing is going to be from some view or another. I've got no problem with you (or anyone else) taking what I say, testing it and coming back at me on it if any of it is wrong (which some things may be in part, not deliberately but I'm not perfect!)

Quote:
Really, what i wanted to say was that although from a christian's point of view, it all makes perfect sense, from my point of view it just causes conflict. Other than because of religion, evolutionist theories haven't really caused many wars.
I guess what it boils down to here is that is that whether you believe it's the bible that's caused conflict or someone's bad interpretation that's caused conflict. Hypothetically a couple of mad scientists in charge of a nuclear arsenal with slightly differing views on evolution could just as easily start a war by trying to eradicate the other, that doesn't render either argument invalid. One of the most well known teaching's of Jesus is "love your enemies" (again a hugely radical point back in its day.) If he'd have said "blow the crap out of your enemies" instead then I'd say it falls back on the bible being the culprit...
__________________
Save the whales, feed the hungry, free the mallocs.
berry120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2011, 01:26 PM   #49
Fully Optimized
 
~Darkseeker~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Welwyn Garden City, United Kingdom
Posts: 2,494
Default Re: What do you think of christianity?

Bad interpretations of religious texts often ends in some form of terrorism. lol

Westboro Baptist church -> radicalist interpretation of the old testament

Al Qaeda -> Sunni Islamic extremists (orthodox islamic) who seems to have misunderstoof what Jihad and Islam is actually about.
__________________
EVGA SLI Micro Z68 // Intel i5-2500k @ 4.4GHz // 8GB Corsair Vengeance 1866MHz // Overclocked ASUS GTX 660 Ti // Corsair Carbide SPEC-03 // Kingston Hyper-X 120GB // 2TB WD Green + 500GB WD Black
#JC4PM
~Darkseeker~ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2011, 01:31 PM   #50
Site Team
 
berry120's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: England, UK
Posts: 3,425
Default Re: What do you think of christianity?

Quote:
Bad interpretations of religious texts often ends in some form of terrorism. lol

Westboro Baptist church -> radicalist interpretation of the old testament

Al Qaeda -> Sunni Islamic extremists (orthodox islamic) who seems to have misunderstoof what Jihad and Islam is actually about.
It's a sad fact that they do! But they key there in my mind is "bad interpretation", not "bad religious texts". With enough of a twisted mind I could probably say my GCSE biology textbook was a code book saying I should kill someone!
__________________

__________________
Save the whales, feed the hungry, free the mallocs.
berry120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0