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Old 03-21-2005, 09:08 PM   #11
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Default Re: School Shooting!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giancarlo
In fact crimes in Japan involving knives is many times that of both the US and UK.
Any proof?

There's no way that crimes in Japan involving knives is "many" times that of both the US and UK. How could a country with a fraction of the US have "many" times crime rate? That's purely BS.
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Old 03-21-2005, 09:09 PM   #12
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Default Re: School Shooting!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jefforaby
Any proof?

There's no way that crimes in Japan involving knives is "many" times that of both the US and UK. How could a country with a fraction of the US have "many" times crime rate? That's purely BS.
Crime rate is measured on per 1000 people (or 10,000 or even 100,000 people), not on the total population. Japan has suffered a huge explosion in crimes related to knifes..

Use your head.
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Old 03-21-2005, 09:13 PM   #13
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Default Re: School Shooting!!

h/o ill google it
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Old 03-22-2005, 10:38 AM   #14
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Default Re: School Shooting!!

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Originally Posted by rakedog
However, Englands murder rate is far lower then in the US.
I think so too, where i come from is Gang related & Rough necks.
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Old 03-22-2005, 12:51 PM   #15
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Gain, I think you have a sligjtly blurred view of things in England and the rest of the UK. (I can understand why though, I bet I'm not fully aware of the gun situation in the US)

The police are in no way afrad to do their job, in day to day work our police rarly have to worry about the threat of guns, in some ways I expect this would make the job easyer, as they dont risk being shot though a door while on everyday enquierys. For the times where guns will be involved its most likly to involve gangs that are know or suspect to be armed and in these cases we do have armed police who can deal with these situations.

Just today Police marksman shot dead a man driving dangerously the wrong way down a road and who had then tried to hijack several cars, after withstanding 2 baton rounds they where forced to use firearms.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/humber/4371071.stm

In the case of shool shootings this is a diffrent issue, where illegal guns are used in this country it will it will most likly be by orginised criminals for robbery. In the UK a depressed teenager on a downer couldn't just pick up daddys gun an massacure his classmates in the heat of the moment, access to guns is just not like that in this country.

I'd also like to ask you why you and fellow Americans feel that this is a "right" and why you feel you must? Here in the UK law and order is not out of controll yet nobody owns guns. I do understand that it can deter crime, but crime is not significantly worse, if worse in this country than it is in the USA anyway.

I also understand there would be issues in removing the right to bear arms, and it couldnt be done overnight, but removing access to guns would reduce situations like this from happening in the future. The USA is no longer the frontier, a coloney, its a contry with a police force and an army.

Im not telling you how to run your country or anything, but its somthing to consider.
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Old 03-22-2005, 02:26 PM   #16
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Default Re: School Shooting!!

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Originally Posted by Delta
Gain, I think you have a sligjtly blurred view of things in England and the rest of the UK. (I can understand why though, I bet I'm not fully aware of the gun situation in the US)
No in retrospect, you have a slightly blurred view of things of the US. There are actually very few gun related crimes in the US to begin with. In fact, the crimes committed with guns is way low.

Quote:
The police are in no way afrad to do their job, in day to day work our police rarly have to worry about the threat of guns, in some ways I expect this would make the job easyer, as they dont risk being shot though a door while on everyday enquierys. For the times where guns will be involved its most likly to involve gangs that are know or suspect to be armed and in these cases we do have armed police who can deal with these situations.
Again I will bring up a link showing that a black market exists in England and an increasing amount of crimes are in fact committed by illegally owned guns.

http://www.rense.com/general12/gun.htm

"The controversial ban on the ownership of handguns which was introduced after the Dunblane massacre has failed to halt an increasing number of crimes involving firearms.

An independent report, Illegal Firearms in the UK, to be published by the Centre for Defence Studies at King's College in London tomorrow, says that handguns were used in 3,685 offences last year compared with 2,648 in 1997, an increase of 40 per cent.

The figures will renew the debate about the effectiveness of the gun ban, introduced by the last Conservative government and then extended to cover all pistols by Labour after winning the 1997 general election.

Legislation banning larger-calibre pistols was proposed by the previous Conservative government in response to the murder of 16 pupils and their teacher by Thomas Hamilton at Dunblane primary school in March 1996."

Rense is a libertarian source that is very unbiased in these matters.

Quote:
In the case of shool shootings this is a diffrent issue, where illegal guns are used in this country it will it will most likly be by orginised criminals for robbery. In the UK a depressed teenager on a downer couldn't just pick up daddys gun an massacure his classmates in the heat of the moment, access to guns is just not like that in this country.
Depressed teenagers can easily get access to any black market guns that exist. Believe me in any country it is easy to get them, no matter what you do. Did you know that every LAPD squad car has M-16s in the trunk? This is because several years ago, two suspects I believe had bullet proof vests on and had specially modified AK-47s that had "cop killer" bullets (ones that pierce through vests). Luckily no cop died on that day, but many were injured. The cops are now forced to have M-16s in the trunks of their squad cars.

Those AK-47s that the suspects used were unregistered and illegally imported.

Quote:
I'd also like to ask you why you and fellow Americans feel that this is a "right" and why you feel you must? Here in the UK law and order is not out of controll yet nobody owns guns. I do understand that it can deter crime, but crime is not significantly worse, if worse in this country than it is in the USA anyway.
Order is most definitely out of control.

http://icnewcastle.icnetwork.co.uk/0...l&siteid=50081

"Police have voiced fears about a growing knife culture in the North after a Sunday Sun investigation discovered the number of people carrying offensive weapons has rocketed.

Our findings come at the end of an eight-day period in which a North man was killed with a samurai sword, a policeman was stabbed to death in Manchester while arresting alleged terrorists.

Using available figures from police stop-and-search operations, we can reveal that in the last year incidents in the North have risen by over 30 per cent, from 609 to 795.

A spokeswoman for Cleveland police said: "We're aware that a knife-carrying culture has been developing in Cleveland."

------

What now? You want to pass legislation to ban knives? Crime is most certainly becoming a bigger problem in the UK then it is here. In fact our crimes rates here in the US (and Los Angeles for that matter) are falling. Armed officers are able to do their job better. An armed populace is able to defend themselves.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3074141.stm

"The government has been accused of losing the fight against crime as figures show violent crime is up, despite a slight drop in overall offences.
Overall crime levels edged down by 3% in the year to April, police figures showed, but violent crime was up 2%.

Unadjusted figures which did not take into account new methods of recording crime said violence had rocketed by 22%."

It seems even your government is trying to cover up the reality by introducing "new methods of recording". What's that? Not counting some crimes? It appears violent crime shot up by 22%.

Quote:
I also understand there would be issues in removing the right to bear arms, and it couldnt be done overnight, but removing access to guns would reduce situations like this from happening in the future. The USA is no longer the frontier, a coloney, its a contry with a police force and an army.
I don't agree. Absolutely not. The people in this country have rights and we appreciate you not tell us what freedoms we can or cannot have. Removing access to guns as I have demonstrated, will NOT DO ANYTHING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM. In fact people will find other methods, like with knives.

Quote:
Im not telling you how to run your country or anything, but its somthing to consider.
I don't think we should ever consider something that would water down our constitutional rights.

Edit: Oh here is a recent release on our crime rate:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...5/100534.shtml

"WASHINGTON -- The nation's murder rate rose slightly in the first half of the year despite a 3.1 percent drop in overall violent crime, the FBI reported Monday.

There were 1.1 percent more murders during the first six months of 2003 compared with the same period a year earlier _ the only category of violent crime to show an increase from January to June.

The biggest increase was in the Northeast, where there were 4.3 percent more murders than a year ago. There were also more homicides in the South and West, with only the Midwest showing a decrease of 1.9 percent.

Still, the total number of reported crimes of murder, manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery and aggravated assault dropped 3.1 percent from year to year, the FBI said in its preliminary look at the nation's crime picture in 2003."
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Old 03-22-2005, 03:10 PM   #17
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Default Re: School Shooting!!

ive heard that there are over 11,000 gun related crimes in the US, wheras there are relatively few in Britain i think 100's to a couple of thousand
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Old 03-22-2005, 03:43 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Techy Geek
ive heard that there are over 11,000 gun related crimes in the US, wheras there are relatively few in Britain i think 100's to a couple of thousand
You have to take into account the population size of the United States. There are over 290 million people living here. How many in UK? 60 million. I just don't think it is fair to compare figures like that.

And also I posted this article.. that guns were used in over 3,500 crimes in the UK.

"An independent report, Illegal Firearms in the UK, to be published by the Centre for Defence Studies at King's College in London tomorrow, says that handguns were used in 3,685 offences last year."
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Old 03-22-2005, 06:54 PM   #19
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"Depressed teenagers can easily get access to any black market guns that exist."

Though perfectly true, my point is that these massacres have ether been committed by kids who where allowed to keep guns by parents and were surrounded by them every day, or by a kid who just got pissed off one day, grabbed one that was kept somewhere close they knew, and then went on a rampage.

In the UK its extremely unlikely that a parent is going to let their child amass a collection of weapons in their upbringing, in the UK this would lead to major jail sentences. Its also unlikely a kid who just got pissed off would have the thought and perseverance to go out looking for illegal arms, pay thousands for them, and then walk into a school. The process would be so long and flawed that any kid would ether give up or look to other means, it is then less likely they will take a knife in and do a melee massacre because they would get their ass kicked before they had even started it. (though it has happened)

"Order is most definitely out of control"

I think we have conflicting visions of this, my point was without owning a gun, I could leave my car open, my front and back door open, go to sleep and wake up the next morning without anybody entering my property and committing any crime. This is likely the same for you and what I was trying to put across is that even though we don't have guns, it doesn't mean criminals are wandering around taking what they want. Our police force and community protect our property, not weapons.

It is true that the number of people carrying knifes does seem to have increased in recent years, but remember we haven't had armed Police officers for over 5o years now. I don't feel the increase in knife crime relates directly to the fact that our police force is unarmed. Figures and statistics vary all the time. The increases are properly on par with the increase of needs who listen to "gangsta getto rap", wear Burberry, and pimp up their cars with tacky lights. Its just the times.

"I don't agree. Absolutely not. The people in this country have rights and we appreciate you not tell us what freedoms we can or cannot have. Removing access to guns as I have demonstrated, will NOT DO ANYTHING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM. In fact people will find other methods, like with knives.

I don't think we should ever consider something that would water down our constitutional rights."

I wasn't telling you what to do, I was simply saying that when the United States was first formed yes, it was necessary for the masses to help sustain law and order, however the USA now has an effective police force, and an army to sustain law and protect your freedoms. Its obvious to see that massacres such as today's would not be so frequent had access to weapons been more restricted. Its is possible to have a civilised society without firearms, most of Europe proves this point.

About the constitution, well yes its your country and as a citizen in a democracy you have the right to run it the way you feel. However people should be more open minded to change, redundant laws and traditions should have no place in today's world.

Coming back to the UK for a second, we have a wrinkly fat old lady in the country who today still has the right to overrule the citizens of the UK and declare war on any country she feels, what's worse is we pay her for this privilege. This country today is still based on a Monarchy, because its "traditional". Conservative minded people feel that we should continue this interfering money wasting regime. Yes when the UK was formed it may have had its place, but today it has no place in the world, and its sick to see that nobody has yet to tell them where to go.

"ive heard that there are over 11,000 gun related crimes in the US, wheras there are relatively few in Britain i think 100's to a couple of thousand"

You got that from "Bowling for Colombine", I did not want to bring this figure up because I don't like Michael Moore, hes a tit. Yes in this documentary the figures were around 65 and the death toll in the US was over 1100 even by percentage of population this is is much much higher, the UK this is roughly 1 in a million people.

I'm really not trying to tell you how to do things, or start an argument, I'm simply saying that arms in the hands of everyone is not necessary to keep law and order in a modern civilised society.
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Old 03-22-2005, 08:14 PM   #20
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Default Re: School Shooting!!

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Originally Posted by Delta
Though perfectly true, my point is that these massacres have ether been committed by kids who where allowed to keep guns by parents and were surrounded by them every day, or by a kid who just got pissed off one day, grabbed one that was kept somewhere close they knew, and then went on a rampage.
You will be not be able to get rid of guns by banning them. I'd appreciate you piss on your own freedoms, and not the freedoms of those living in America. I'll tell you the truth, banning guns in Britain did nothing to do lower the crime rate.

Quote:
In the UK its extremely unlikely that a parent is going to let their child amass a collection of weapons in their upbringing, in the UK this would lead to major jail sentences. Its also unlikely a kid who just got pissed off would have the thought and perseverance to go out looking for illegal arms, pay thousands for them, and then walk into a school. The process would be so long and flawed that any kid would ether give up or look to other means, it is then less likely they will take a knife in and do a melee massacre because they would get their ass kicked before they had even started it. (though it has happened)
Your thinking is horribly, fatally flawed. Most crimes are not committed by those weapons being stockpiled by weapons, but the black market weapons that are easily accessible (ones being sold on the street). I've demonstrated with the pure, simple facts that people are still able to get guns and commit crimes with guns in Britain, in fact over 3,500 crimes have been reported. So understand this, it appears a gun ban has done nothing to help the situation. Violence just has spiraled out of control in Britain.

Quote:
This is likely the same for you and what I was trying to put across is that even though we don't have guns, it doesn't mean criminals are wandering around taking what they want. Our police force and community protect our property, not weapons.
I have shown pure and simple evidence demonstrating that crime is mostly certainly out of control. You on the other hand have not presented any links (except one, which is just of one case). I on the other hand have posted various links showing evidence contradicting your opinion.. evidence released by the British government. Your police force has not done enough. Our police forces, specifically the LAPD has done a lot more then say the Police force in London. They have the ability to do so, even though they are undermanned. We arm them better then any police force in the United States.

Quote:
I wasn't telling you what to do, I was simply saying that when the United States was first formed yes, it was necessary for the masses to help sustain law and order, however the USA now has an effective police force, and an army to sustain law and protect your freedoms. Its obvious to see that massacres such as today's would not be so frequent had access to weapons been more restricted. Its is possible to have a civilised society without firearms, most of Europe proves this point.
It doesn't matter if the US has an effective police force and national guard (the army is prohibited by the constitution to put itself in internal affairs)... these are still our rights. It is obvious to point to the fact, that you are blatantly wrong in this regard. A civilized society without fire arms? Most of Europe? Have you ever been to the rest of Europe outside of Britain? I have. Guns are legal to have. Police forces from France to Spain, to Germany to Italy are all armed. The populace is allowed to have weapons (though it is more restricted, they still are allowed to do so). I do not think you can go making a fuss about our rights, when you do not understand the self defense argument. The police takes five minutes to get to a home here typically.. what if that is not enough time? Purely enough, I think having a firearm is appropriate. No police force is 100% effective. If that were the case there would be no crime. Additionally, I do not believe there is enough time for the cops to get to my apartment say if I were being robbed. They would get here in five or six minutes, but it would be too late. What if the person is carrying a weapon and is bent on killing you? Well there you go.

Quote:
About the constitution, well yes its your country and as a citizen in a democracy you have the right to run it the way you feel. However people should be more open minded to change, redundant laws and traditions should have no place in today's world.
Open minded to change? Redundant laws? You are acting so ridiculous and stubborn. Take a look at the skyrocketing crime rates in Britain, and the falling crime rates in the United States. I don't even want to hear your ideas on change because they are nothing more then dictatorship.

Quote:
This country today is still based on a Monarchy, because its "traditional". Conservative minded people feel that we should continue this interfering money wasting regime. Yes when the UK was formed it may have had its place, but today it has no place in the world, and its sick to see that nobody has yet to tell them where to go.
Your country's monarchy has far less power then say the monarchy in Spain, which controls the Armed Forces. The royal monarchy in Spain however has done a lot for the country and should be kept. Well, yes I do think the royal family is a big waste of money.. but it brings in tourism.

But this is completely off-topic.

Quote:
You got that from "Bowling for Colombine", I did not want to bring this figure up because I don't like Michael Moore, hes a tit. Yes in this documentary the figures were around 65 and the death toll in the US was over 1100 even by percentage of population this is is much much higher, the UK this is roughly 1 in a million people.
His figures are completely wrong at any rate.

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html



"After an email tip, I finally found a way to compute precisely 11,127. Ignore the FBI, use Nat'l Center for Health Statistics figures. These are based on doctors' death certificates rather than police investigation.

Then -- to their gun homicide figures, add the figure for legally-justified homicides: self-defense and police use against criminals. Presto, you have exactly Moore's 11,127. I can see no other way for him to get it.

Since Moore appears to use police figures for the other countries, it's hardly a valid comparison. More to the point, it's misleading since it includes self-defense and police: when we talk of a gun homicide problem we hardly have in mind a woman defending against a rapist, or a cop taking out an armed robber."

It is more like 8,700. It has fallen the last two years (2003-2004) by about 3%. Michael Moore's figures on Britain were also incorrect.

Quote:

I'm really not trying to tell you how to do things, or start an argument, I'm simply saying that arms in the hands of everyone is not necessary to keep law and order in a modern civilised society.
I'm simply saying you are simply wrong. In fact you provide no evidence, no links, no figures.. and your argument has no basis. I'm sick of it. If you want to debate with me, you better start coming up with some figures. Wait... all the figures happen to lean to my viewpoint, so it wouldn't be appropriate of you to do so.

Additionally, where did you get the fact that guns are in the hands of everyone in the United States? A huge majority of people do not have guns.

And next time anybody ever quotes that fat shit Michael Moore around here take a look at this:

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
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