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Old 09-26-2008, 12:15 PM   #21
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Default Re: religion

It's hard for an atheist to talk to people whose sole argument revolves around everything written a book atheists deem fictional.

I mean, how am I supposed to believe that any of your arguments are valid, when they are all taken from a book I think is completely wrong? What else tells you that this book is so sincere? I don't believe in 'feeling' god, what I do believe in is placebo effects.

Why do we even have these discussions here anymore? Nobody's opinions change, faith is never shaken, faith is never bestowed, and things just get nasty.

Either way, this discussion is going nowhere, so I'm hopping out of this thread.

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Old 09-26-2008, 12:55 PM   #22
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Default Re: religion

Originally Posted by dorfman View Post
Actually, its because that person praying for them, has not faith that God will heal that person, and thus God doesn't heal that person, because we have no faith. Likewise, the person that is the amputee probably doesn't have the faith for God to heal them, so God doesn't. God isn't going to give you something for nothing. If you don't have faith in the situation happening, hes not just going to make it happen.
So if we cut off your arm, since you have so much faith it's going to grow back?

Originally Posted by dorfman View Post
Also, no where in the Bible does it say, that Gays should go to hell.

It does say that being homosexual is detestable to God, and that we shouldn't do it. JUST LIKE ALL OF THE OTHER SIN!

So the next time some lame Christian says, Gays burn in hell, throw the bible at them, tell them to read it, because they too are sinners.

Being gay, according to the Bible is a sin, but like all sin can be forgiven, if they believe in HIM!
So all guys are just supposed to resist the urge to have sex with guys?

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Old 09-26-2008, 01:05 PM   #23
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Default Re: religion

Sounds like the bible doesn't accommodate men who are genuinely attracted to other men. Sorry chris, looks like you need to avoid sex with men and slip into insanity, after all, you must be 'wrong' and the bible must be right.

Just another reason I think the bible (in any form) is bullshit.
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Old 09-26-2008, 01:22 PM   #24
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Default Re: religion


Our Beliefs

Have you ever seen a church's doctrinal statement before? Doctrinal statements are really important because they state clearly and concisely what a church believes. Doctrinal statements help us by keeping precious biblical truths from being forgotten or distorted.

The Bell Creek Pastors and Elders have taken a lot of time to write this statement for our church. It's a labor of love, and a huge responsibility that we take seriously.

It's kind of popular nowadays to make the language in doctrinal statements as simple as possible, but we think there are some things that just can't be said correctly without using words and phrases that the people of God have used for centuries. If there's anything here you would like to discuss, we would be happy to talk with you!

We hope you'll take the time to read this carefully, and look up the verses in the Bible as you go - in fact, take some time and go through it as a family!

The Bell Creek Community Church Pastors and Elders

The Word of God
We believe that the Bible is the Word of God, fully inspired and without error in the original manuscripts. We believe that its human authors wrote it under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and that it is the final authority in all matters of faith and conduct.
II Timothy 3:16; II Peter 1:20,21; Mark 13:31; John 8:31,32; John 20:31; Acts 20:32

The Trinity
We believe that there is only one living and true God, that He eternally exists in three persons -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, that each of these persons is fully God, and that they are equal in every divine attribute and perfection. Each person of the Trinity executes distinct but complementary offices in the work of creation, providence, and redemption.
Genesis 1:1,26; John 1:1,3; Matthew 28:19; John 4:24; Romans 1:19,20; Ephesians 4:5,6

God the Father
We believe in God the Father, the Almighty; the Maker of heaven and earth. He is an infinite, personal spirit, perfect in holiness, wisdom, power and love. We believe that He foreknows all things past, present, and future; that He concerns Himself mercifully in the affairs of men, that He hears and answers prayer, and that He saves from sin and death all who come to Him through Jesus Christ.
Luke 10:21,22; Matthew 23:9; John 3:16; 6:27; Romans 1:7; I Timothy 1:1,2; 2:5,6; I Peter 1:3; Revelation 1:6

The Providence of God (from the Heidelberg Catechism)
We believe that God is all-powerful, and is present everywhere; and, that by his fatherly hand, He upholds and governs heaven, earth, and all creatures; so that even leaves and grass, rain and drought, fruitful and barren years, food and drink, health and sickness, riches and poverty, indeed, all things come, not by chance, but by His fatherly hand.
Acts 17:25; Heb.1:3; Jer.5:24; John 9:3; Prov.22:2; Matt.10:20

Jesus Christ
We believe in Jesus Christ, the second person of the Trinity, that He is God's only begotten Son, that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, was born of a virgin, and lived a sinless life. We believe in His substitutionary atoning death, bodily resurrection, ascension into heaven, unceasing prayers for His people, and personal, visible, and imminent return.
Matthew 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-38; John 1:1; 20:28; Romans 9:5; 8:46; II Corinthians 5:21; I Peter 2:21-23; John 20:30,31; Matthew 20:28; Ephesians 1:4; Acts 1:11; Romans 5:6-8; 6:9,10; Hebrews 7:25; Hebrews 9:28; I Timothy 3:16

The Holy Spirit
We believe in the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father and Son to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. He regenerates, sanctifies, and empowers all who believe in Jesus Christ. We believe that the Holy Spirit indwells every believer in Christ, and that He is an abiding helper, teacher and guide.
John 14:16,17,26; 15:26,27; John 16:9-14; Romans 8:9; I Corinthians 3:16; 6:19; Galatians 5:22-26

We believe that man was created by God in His own image, but man sinned and thereby came under the terrible penalty of sin which is eternal suffering, and separation from God. As a consequence of this, all human beings are born with a sinful nature and are sinners by choice and therefore under condemnation. We believe that those who repent and forsake sin and trust Jesus Christ as Savior are regenerated by the Holy Spirit and become new creatures, delivered from condemnation and receive eternal life.
Genesis. 1:26; 5:2; Genesis 3; Genesis 2:17; 3:19; Eccl. 2:11; John 3:14; 5:24; John 5:30; 7:13; 8:12; 10:26; Romans 9:22; II Thessalonians 1:9; Rev. 19:3,20; 20:10;14,15; 21:18; Psalm 51:7; Jeremiah 17:9; James 1:14; Romans 3:19; 5:19; Proverbs 28:13; I John 1:9; John 3:16; John 1:13; II Corinthians 5:17; Romans 8:1

The Church
We believe in the universal church, a living spiritual body of which Christ is the head and all regenerated persons are members. We believe in the local church, which is made up of a community of believers in Jesus Christ, baptized on a credible profession of faith, and associated for worship, work, and fellowship. We believe that God has laid upon the members of the local church the primary task of giving the gospel of Jesus Christ to a lost world.
Ephesians 2:19-22; Acts 1:8; Ephesians 5:19-21; Acts 2:42; Hebrews 10:23-25

The Christian's Life
As Christians, we must live for the glory of God in all that we do, knowing that God is most glorified in our lives when we treasure and enjoy Him above all else. We are completely dependent on God for the provision of everything we need in life, including the strength to live as we ought. Therefore, we seek to be filled, and walk with the Holy Spirit, realizing that apart from Him we can do nothing. We earnestly pursue the full stature of maturity in Christ for ourselves and others.
I Corinthians 10:31; Romans 12:1-3; Hebrews 12:1-2; John 14:15, 23-24; I John 2:3-6; II Corinthians 9:6-9; I Corinthians 4:2; Col. 1:9-10; John 15:5; Ephesians 5:18; Colossians 1:28

The Ordinances of the Church
We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ has given two ordinances to the local church - baptism and the Lord's Supper. We believe that Christian baptism is the immersion of the believer in water into the name of the triune God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). We believe that the Lord's Supper was instituted by Christ for commemoration of His death. We believe that these two ordinances should be observed and administered until the return of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Matthew 28:18-20; Romans 6:3-5; I Corinthians 11:23-26
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Old 09-26-2008, 02:19 PM   #25
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Default Re: religion

As a Christian I've learned not to Judge. Just like I'm not going to judge Mike, Bullzi, Drum, Chris and anyone else who disagrees with someone elses beliefs in God, Faith and religion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, But unfortunately there are some that feel the need to lash out at others for their particular beliefs because they don't get the answers to the most extremely complex of questions that arise when it comes to God.

Alot of people have the misconception that God is some sort of Genie and he's here at our disposal to grant out any wishes that we ask of him, But it doesn't work that way. Why didn't God grant the wishes to the millions that prayed when Jesus was being nailed to the cross and killed? I couldn't imagine that.

Then you have those that will say, Well, If there's a God, Then why is this world in turmoil? If he reigns over all, Why doesn't he make all Great again? If he is the King of Kings, Why must things continue? Well, When people ask me that, I just simply reply.........Why is there a Hell?

I've learned to observe the walk of my life and the things that happen to me.. I can honestly sit back and know why I didn't get what I wanted, Or why this happened, etc. Everything I've gone through has tought me something and "molded" me in a sense.

In regards to what someone said about sinning and the good Lord just offering "forgiveness". You can't expect to struggle with a particular sin every day of your life and having the mentality and arrogance to think the Lord will keep forgiving you. He will help you with the sin you are struggling with and forgive you if you put in an honest and true effort to walk away from it. If your not the aforementioned, The jokes on you.
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Old 09-26-2008, 02:24 PM   #26
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Default Re: religion

Originally Posted by dorfman View Post
The New American Standard Bible is the most literal bible we have. These are greek scholars that write these bibles, some of them might even have greek as their first language. The problem we have, is that no language translates perfectly into another. So instead of directly translating the word, they give us phrase that means what the word means.

Also, with that said, the NKJV or the KJV is the worst translation. The reason being is that it was written in the 1600's, and translated from the Latin version of the Bible.

So you have Hebrew and Greek translated into Latin, then Translated into Old English.

Most new translation, take straight from the Hebrew and Greek.
from what ive heard and seen at the local bible store i think it was the NKJV and the KJV that was the closest but im not quite sure right now since i havent been there in like a year. ill ask my friend but im pretty sure its actually really accurate
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Old 09-26-2008, 02:49 PM   #27
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Default Re: religion

I don't believe in any God just simple because i find it difficult to believe that there is an almighty being . I just think that that is impossible

I also dont follow any religion simple because i dont need someone else to tell me what choices to make in life , for instance i am always highly critical of the catholic churches teachings that contraception in any form is wrong for example .I wouldnt want to be part of an organisation that intruded on my personal rights as a human being i like to make my own decisions and not have decisions like that made for me .
I also find that hugely hypocrotocal , if you christians believe God gave us all free will how come we are not allowed to make our own choices on matters like contraception , drinking , sex before marriage , gay sex, and other sins in the eyes of your God
Another thing that really annoys me is people who believe just because they go to church every sunday and go to special servics at christmas they are wonderful chrisitians and they are guaranteed to go to heaven because i basically call these type of people fake chrisitans because i have been to a christian high school and am currentlyl at a catholic college and i have always been taught that to be a christian you have to accept god into every part of your life etc , it isnt just a club where you can show up every Sunday and proclaim to be a good chrisitian . I do know several christian people who accept Christianity into their lives , and use it very effectively at home to bring their children up and teach them right from wrong and that is the same with other religions for instance i see a lot of muslims drinking and smoking where i live however they often profess to be completely Muslim when it suits them .it really annoys me because them sort of people are always first to criticise you for not having a faith
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Old 09-26-2008, 03:17 PM   #28
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Default Re: religion

Originally Posted by dorfman View Post
This is a theory not a belief that many people believe in, simply by the math of the O.T. For instance if you take Adam and he lived several hundred years, and so on….if Adam was "created" on the year 0 or what have you, you would have about 6000 between then and now. And there is no specific places in the bible that suggest that it is older than 6k.
Adam lived 900 years, but I agree that the time line of the bible is about 6k years (there abouts) but the actual earth itself is much older than 6k years. If you believe the earth is 6k years, then do you believe that heaven itself is 6k years old?

Originally Posted by dorfman View Post
Genesis 2:7-24 (NASB)

"7Then the LORD God formed man of (H)dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and (I)man became a living being. 8The LORD God planted a (J)garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed. 9Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow (K)every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; (L)the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. 10Now a (M)river flowed out of Eden to water the garden; and from there it divided and became four rivers. 11The name of the first is Pishon; it flows around the whole land of (N)Havilah, where there is gold. 12The gold of that land is good; the bdellium and the onyx stone are there. 13The name of the second river is Gihon; it flows around the whole land of Cush. 14The name of the third river is (O)Tigris; it flows east of Assyria And the fourth river is the (P)Euphrates. 15Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. 16The LORD God (Q)commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it (R)you will surely die." 18Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; (S)I will make him a helper [a]suitable for him." 19(T)Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and (U)brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. 20The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for [b]Adam there was not found (V)a helper suitable for him. 21So the LORD God caused a (W)deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. 22The LORD God [c]fashioned into a woman (X)the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. 23The man said,
"(Y)This is now bone of my bones,
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man." 24(Z)For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. 25(AA)And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed. "

That pretty well states that man was alone. And Adam and Eve were the first ones.
Alone in the Garden of Eden, read Genesis 1:26-31. It says God created Man (as in all the human races) in his own image and tells them be fruitful and multiply and then it says in goes into Chapter 2 where it says God rested on the 7th Day. THEN after the 7th day God created Adam and Eve so that says to me that Adam and Eve were quite easily not the first people.

Originally Posted by dorfman View Post
"John 14:2-3
2"In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for (A)I go to prepare a place for you.
3"If I go and prepare a place for you, (B)I will come again and receive you to Myself, that (C)where I am, there you may be also.
Philippians 3:20-21
20For (A)our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly (B)wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21who will (C)transform the body of our humble state into (D)conformity with the E)body of His glory, (F)by the exertion of the power that He has even to (G)subject all things to Himself.

1 Corinthians 15:49-55
49Just as we have (A)borne the image of the earthy, [a]we (B)will also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now I say this, brethren, that (C)flesh and blood cannot (D)inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit (E)the imperishable.
51Behold, I tell you a (F)mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be (G)changed,
52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for (H)the trumpet will sound, and (I)the dead will be raised imperishable, and (J)we will be changed.
53For this perishable must put on (K)the imperishable, and this (L)mortal must put on immortality.
54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "(M)DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15For this we say to you (A)by the word of the Lord, that (B)we who are alive and remain until (C)the coming of the Lord, will not precede (D)those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord (E)Himself (F)will descend from heaven with a (G)shout, with the voice of (H)the archangel and with the (I)trumpet of God, and (J)the dead in Christ will rise first.
17Then (K)we who are alive and remain will be (L)caught up together with them (M)in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always (N)be with the Lord.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-7
1Now we request you, (A)brethren, with regard to the (B)coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our (C)gathering together to Him,
2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a (D)spirit or a (E)message or a (F)letter as if from us, to the effect that (G)the day of the Lord (H)has come.
3(I)Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the [a](J)apostasy comes first, and the (K)man of lawlessness is revealed, the (L)son of destruction,
4who opposes and exalts himself above (M)every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, (N)displaying himself as being God.
5Do you not remember that (O)while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6And you know (P)what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
7For (Q)the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only (R)he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. "

All of these verses relate to Jesus Rapturing us. Its not the question of is Jesus going to rapture us. Its when, that the big debate is. Before or after Satan comes, and even in the middle. Jesus is going to rapture us…its just when?
Those verses are taken out of context, secondly. Let's just say Christ raptures his Church away before Satan comes, why even bother with the charade of sending Satan next? everyone that would be left would be non-Christians. Besides, in 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-7 is says the Apostasy comes first so that means Satan is first. Then Jesus can't rapture us after Satan because that's when (according to Scripture) that our flesh ends, when he sits on the temple mount claiming to be God is when the 7th trump sounds.
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Old 09-26-2008, 03:18 PM   #29
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Default Re: religion

Religion is the opiate of the masses

.................................................. Karl Marx

It is an isidious drug that can turn normal people in mindless drones.

I'll stick to beer thanks.

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Old 09-26-2008, 03:38 PM   #30
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Default Re: religion

I don't know what to believe, I really don't. I guess I won't know 'till I die.

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