Random Chit Chat

I have lived with clinical depression nearly all my life (I am currently L years old), and I am introverted,and yet I definitely enjoy myself often through the day.

Of course, having had so many years of knowing myself and my condition, getting medication to offset the more undesirable qualities (anger) plus personal mental conditioning makes me an easier person to be around than my more volatile younger self.

I think the primary motivation of humans is more selfish. People have proven time and again that they care not about your suffering, if it means that they are comfortable. This attitude is changing slowly, but even so, many so-called bleeding-heart types don't practice what they preach if it interferes with their personal senses of entitlement.

For instance, anytime a politician says they are doing something "for the children", you can pretty much guarantee that it's really for their bottom line. If the children benefit, then that is just gravy.

I also find that humans have this innate need to 'game the system', whatever system it is... applied use of fire was gaming the natural order, as was farming, and animal husbandry. Religion and civilization allowed certain individuals to make life easier for themselves, though those institutions did tend to benefit all in the tribe to a certain extent (if one was outside the tribe, then it made things tougher).
 
When I read in the bible about Moses parting the Red Sea and the serpent talked Eve into eating an apple I find this shit hard to believe.

Jesus resurrected from the dead just clinched it. :rolleyes:

Religion does a purpose and that's faith. You can have faith without religion.
 
I'm religious and I don't really care about such details. What religion stands for is what I care for; basics and standards. At least I can believe in my four generations old GTX 680 :D

Wait, that's different, isn't it!!!
 
As it stands, we are already severely overpopulated. While it is currently possible for the majority of people to meet their basic needs, the world cannot sustainably support anywhere near the current population long-term without utter devastation to the ecosystem and ever-increasing reliance on technology just to continue meeting basic needs of the population. Even if we were to immediately abandon all reliance on fossil fuel and cut consumption to a minimum, this remains the reality. In just a few generations, the world will be a significantly different place, and I do not mean this merely in the scope of changes to society.

I both agree and disagree with this. Our current implementation of society makes our population a larger tax on the planet. If you took those 8 billion people, and spread them equally across the globe and each locality consumed only those resources that were available to them, and moreover gave back to the earth in that exchange, I doubt population would be that big a deal. Our population is currently a burden because of the way we consume those resources.

Feed lots for example, cause more green house gases than any amount of fossil fuel use. "Cow farts" was attacked in the 80's and dismissed as a silly proposition, but agriculture is actually the worst effect we currently have on the planet.

It's not the amount (IMHO), it's the approach.

All that said, I would agree that the human population should remain at lower numbers.

All deaths are needless, as a result of all life being needless. The primary motivation of nearly all human behaviour is mitigation of suffering. We tell ourselves that we're seeking pleasure, but the disparity becomes readily apparent if you look at how much time is spent striving to meet basic needs in contrast to the amount of time spent actually experiencing legitimate pleasure. Were life, as stated by all the clichéd platitudes we so often hear, actually so intrinsically great, we would be content simply with existing and would not spend the majority of our free time seeking out meaningless forms of recreation to distract ourselves from the reality of our existence. Thus, the only conclusion which can be drawn is that the natural human state is one of suffering.

All deaths are needed. Imagine a planet where nobody died. Fun for a century, boring forever.

Continuing my magnet analogy; A life exists on a continuum from one polar opposite to the other. Along there, you have all sorts of life types. Those who exist to mitigate suffering, to those who's entire life is pleasure despite periods of perceived suffering. From what I can tell though; It's all on our heads. Why is it that two people going skydiving, one is in a state of near euphoria and the second is ready to defecate themselves? Because of how they perceive the circumstance. It's the exact same circumstance, but one person sees the magic in it, the other sees the fear painted all over it.

Similarly, what we refer to as "depression" is highly correlated with intelligence and introversion. There is a theory, known as "depressive realism," which states that, due to the general suppression of "negativistic" ideas and the proliferation of "positive" ones, the majority of society has developed a bias toward delusionally optimistic ways of thinking. People who question this are simply labeled as "depressed" and their points-of-view ignored without any consideration.

No doubt many live in a dream state. They fail to see some of the harsh realities that plague our existence. I would contend however, that often times the negatives are considered far outside the context to which they belong. Atrocities are committed every day, but those atrocities account for a fraction of interactions, and a fraction of time. Our memories work in such a way though that emotion is the strongest tie to memory. Those things which make us angry, sad, depressed are remember much more easily than everyday interactions. Combine that with a society in which you're constantly chasing happiness (even though it's always right in front of you), and sure, your memory starts to get a bit bias from the overload of negativity pounding us from every direction... but that's not all inclusive.

Correlation != causation. Being a regular target of predatory behaviour tends to result in a pessimistic outlook toward humanity in general. Many people are targeted simply for falling outside the generally accepted social norm. This was certainly the case for me when growing up, and it has undoubtedly contributed to my current misanthropic views.

I'll ask for some data around this sometime in the next week. I wasn't trying to link them together in all circumstances, and the more I recall that conversation, the I believe she was speaking of domestic violence victims more than anything. The environment is what is taught and sought after, therefore the victim and criminal in that context are just trying to produce an environment they're comfortable in, one in which domestic violence exists. So the role they play in that environment is regardless to the individual, as long as the environment is reproduced.

Asexuality is not a "view;" it is a legitimate sexual orientation (or, by some descriptions, a lack thereof.) To simply write it off as "you're young" is the same as telling LGBT people that they're not old enough to understand their own identities. I recognize that asexuality is poorly understood by the general public, but hearing this type of comment any time it gets brought up tends to very quickly become tedious.

Understand that in no way was I saying your gender/sexuality/personal inclinations were "wrong"... just operating under the assumption that perhaps a lack of experience was reinforcing a view. That's all. Kind of like me saying I'd never try sushi-mi because it's freaking gross and who eats raw fish? Then I tried some and wow.... so many years I've been missing out.



EDIT: Re: All life is needless
This is a needless statement. You can ponder over why you're here or what it's all about until the day you die and never get a good answer. The fact remains though that here you are. Here life is. How it came to this is irrelevant. Why this is here is irrelevant. It's here and you have the opportunity to experience it in all it's glory and disgust. See through the illusion and it's really not that bad. Do you feel bad for the NPC's you kill in Skyrim? Probably not because at some level you understand their pain is illusory. So is ours! It sure feels real, but it's as real as the NPC in Skyrim getting hit with an arrow.
 
Last edited:
My best kind of woman? The kind that waited for me for about nine months patiently and lovingly suffer pain and inconvenience.

Bless you, mother.

Guys, no matter what or how mothers are, those nine month can never be repaid to them, not even in the slightest.
 
I both agree and disagree with this. Our current implementation of society makes our population a larger tax on the planet. If you took those 8 billion people, and spread them equally across the globe and each locality consumed only those resources that were available to them, and moreover gave back to the earth in that exchange, I doubt population would be that big a deal. Our population is currently a burden because of the way we consume those resources.

Going all the way back to prehistory, humanity has had a massive impact on ecosystems. This is despite the population being only a small fraction of what it is today. Consuming only local resources would not be a solution, as those resources would still be rapidly depleted unless resource usage was collectively decided based upon environmental impact. Even then, the sheer level of destruction required for basic things such as agriculture and materials collection would remain astounding.

Feed lots for example, cause more green house gases than any amount of fossil fuel use. "Cow farts" was attacked in the 80's and dismissed as a silly proposition, but agriculture is actually the worst effect we currently have on the planet.
Absolutely. When typing that out, I had initially included a clause about elimination of meat production, but decided that it was covered under "cut consumption to a minimum."

All deaths are needed. Imagine a planet where nobody died. Fun for a century, boring forever.
This is in no way my point. The existence of life is inherently needless. Thus, death, an intrinsic part of life, can also be considered needless.

Continuing my magnet analogy; A life exists on a continuum from one polar opposite to the other. Along there, you have all sorts of life types. Those who exist to mitigate suffering, to those who's entire life is pleasure despite periods of perceived suffering.
You seem to view the presence of suffering as an attitude. I consider it to be universal. One's outlook regarding their personal experience of suffering can differ, but it does not preclude them from experiencing it and being driven by it.

From what I can tell though; It's all on our heads. Why is it that two people going skydiving, one is in a state of near euphoria and the second is ready to defecate themselves? Because of how they perceive the circumstance. It's the exact same circumstance, but one person sees the magic in it, the other sees the fear painted all over it.
See above.

No doubt many live in a dream state. They fail to see some of the harsh realities that plague our existence. I would contend however, that often times the negatives are considered far outside the context to which they belong. Atrocities are committed every day, but those atrocities account for a fraction of interactions, and a fraction of time. Our memories work in such a way though that emotion is the strongest tie to memory.
Seeking reasons for outrage seems to be an intrinsic part of human nature. The western news media is a particularly visible example of this phenomenon.

On a more personal level, my concerns seem to primarily be based on direct effects upon myself or things which I perceive as near-universal to the human condition. To be honest, the type of philosophical discussion we are having right now is more a result of a strong academic interest in ethics than anything emotionally affective. For example, my disgust with human reproduction is on exactly the same emotional level as how I feel about the proliferation of nonstandard bottom brackets within the bicycle industry.

Those things which make us angry, sad, depressed are remember much more easily than everyday interactions. Combine that with a society in which you're constantly chasing happiness (even though it's always right in front of you), and sure, your memory starts to get a bit bias from the overload of negativity pounding us from every direction... but that's not all inclusive.
While I cannot fairly apply this experience to anybody else, my reality is such that there is little enjoyment to be found in outside experiences. The "everyday interactions" you use as an example are simply unpleasant to me, as is perception in general-- a result of extreme hypersensitivity.

For example, as I type this, I am hyper-aware of all of the following: a high-frequency electrical noise of unknown origin; the sound of the fan in my computer; the visible flicker of the monitor's backlight; the noise of cars in the distance; birds calling each other; my own breathing; blink rate; the air temperature; my body position; slight bodily sensations such as allergies; distracting lights, textures, and objects in my peripheral vision; and physical contact with other body parts, the floor, my clothing, the laptop, the blanket under which I am sitting, and my hair

This is despite my best attempts at creating a comfortable environment. Being in an environment upon which I have no control is absolutely overwhelming and leads to severely negative emotions for which I have no name. Simply being in the presence of other humans is highly unpleasant, for reasons beyond, but not exclusive of, anxiety.

I'll ask for some data around this sometime in the next week. I wasn't trying to link them together in all circumstances, and the more I recall that conversation, the I believe she was speaking of domestic violence victims more than anything. The environment is what is taught and sought after, therefore the victim and criminal in that context are just trying to produce an environment they're comfortable in, one in which domestic violence exists. So the role they play in that environment is regardless to the individual, as long as the environment is reproduced.
That certainly does make sense in the context of domestic violence. While it is completely unfair to blame the victim in any way, the reality is that certain personality types do subconsciously seek out abusive situations. I have personally witnessed this with my mother and, through her stories, several of her friends.

Understand that in no way was I saying your gender/sexuality/personal inclinations were "wrong"... just operating under the assumption that perhaps a lack of experience was reinforcing a view. That's all. Kind of like me saying I'd never try sushi-mi because it's freaking gross and who eats raw fish? Then I tried some and wow.... so many years I've been missing out.
Assuming you're heterosexual, does this mean that you have actively sought out sexual experiences with other men just so you can be sure that you would not enjoy it? If this is not the case, I could apply the exact same logic to your situation and say that lack of experience could perhaps be reinforcing the view that you are heterosexual.

EDIT: Re: All life is needless
This is a needless statement. You can ponder over why you're here or what it's all about until the day you die and never get a good answer. The fact remains though that here you are. Here life is. How it came to this is irrelevant. Why this is here is irrelevant. It's here and you have the opportunity to experience it in all it's glory and disgust.
Yes and no. While pondering the purpose of my own coming into existence is ultimately meaningless, it is still very much possible to prevent others from being placed into the same situation. It is from this perspective that I am operating.

See through the illusion and it's really not that bad. Do you feel bad for the NPC's you kill in Skyrim? Probably not because at some level you understand their pain is illusory. So is ours! It sure feels real, but it's as real as the NPC in Skyrim getting hit with an arrow.
I realize you may not mean it that way, but this is among the worst possible advice you could give to someone who lacks emotional empathy.

My best kind of woman? The kind that waited for me for about nine months patiently and lovingly suffer pain and inconvenience.

Bless you, mother.

Guys, no matter what or how mothers are, those nine month can never be repaid to them, not even in the slightest.

Reproduction was my mother's decision, made more to satisfy her own egotism and selfish desires than any altruistic motives. I did not ask to be brought into existence, nor did I consent to it. Had she not chosen to reproduce, "I" would remain in the same state of nonexistence as with the infinite number of theoretical potential humans who could have been brought into existence by a very slight variation in circumstance, but ultimately were not. This would in no way be of concern to anybody, in exactly the same way as theoretical nonexistent people are of no concern to anybody. Thus, no problems were solved by my conception; they were only created. Why should I be thankful?

(I had extreme difficulty putting this thought into language, so I hope it comes off as comprehensible.)

Just for the sake of clarification, I will say that I do not hate my mother. I simply don't see a reason to be thankful to her for my existence. For what it's worth, she seems to recognize her mistake as well. She has actually told me that, should I choose to commit suicide, she would be supportive of that decision.
 
Last edited:
Going all the way back to prehistory, humanity has had a massive impact on ecosystems. This is despite the population being only a small fraction of what it is today. Consuming only local resources would not be a solution, as those resources would still be rapidly depleted unless resource usage was collectively decided based upon environmental impact. Even then, the sheer level of destruction required for basic things such as agriculture and materials collection would remain astounding.

And yet the earth remains. We've effed up the planet 5 or 6 times already and life charges forward. I think we fail to realize how little we impact things in the grand scheme. Sure, I can go burn down an entire forest and say quite comfortably that I've destroyed a forest... but the only thing I've done is start a new cycle of life. Even if we destroy the planet through nuclear war and get wiped off... in another million years or so it starts all over again. Sure, we make impacts, but they're spurious in many ways.

This is in no way my point. The existence of life is inherently needless. Thus, death, an intrinsic part of life, can also be considered needless.

I think strip clubs are pretty filthy, deplorable, and a sign that our society is so sexually deprived that it has to be hidden behind closed doors. On the other hand, I've had to visit many a strip club in a certain job role in the past. Hell, I'm there, might as well enjoy some beautiful sights and cheap cigars.

Regardless of our personal feelings on the situation; it exists. So we can question its necessity or enjoy some cheap cigars. That's my point.

You seem to view the presence of suffering as an attitude. I consider it to be universal. One's outlook regarding their personal experience of suffering can differ, but it does not preclude them from experiencing it and being driven by it.

It mostly is though... Now that's not all inclusive. I imagine even the best zen master would not be content in a torture situation... but most situations we find displeasure in are simply our perceptions of the situation. (IMHO)

Seeking reasons for outrage seems to be an intrinsic part of human nature. The western news media is a particularly visible example of this phenomenon.

Good observation, poor conclusion.

The fact is that most of us are simply acting out of instinct in more ways than we care to admit. We call it free will, but most are driven by emotion... unable to distinguish between assumptions made under duress and those that stand up to reason. Emotions can serve us well, but if not under control they'll drastically alter how we perceive things. The media knows this, so every story is designed to elicit a specific emotional response. That's why in the 90's when crime dropped by tens of percentage points, the reporting on said crime increased by hundreds of percentage points. If I can make you afraid of your own shadow then I can do whatever I want under the guise of security. "Propaganda" by all sovereign nations are run right out of the playbook of Edward Bernays (hailing from Nazi Germany). Same principles used by the Nazi's to influence the majority of thinkers.



While I cannot fairly apply this experience to anybody else, my reality is such that there is little enjoyment to be found in outside experiences. The "everyday interactions" you use as an example are simply unpleasant to me, as is perception in general-- a result of extreme hypersensitivity.

For example, as I type this, I am hyper-aware of all of the following: a high-frequency electrical noise of unknown origin; the sound of the fan in my computer; the visible flicker of the monitor's backlight; the noise of cars in the distance; birds calling each other; my own breathing; the air temperature; my body position; slight bodily sensations such as allergies, distracting lights, textures, and objects in my peripheral vision; physical contact with other body parts, the floor, my clothing, the laptop, the blanket under which I am sitting, and my hair

This is despite my best attempts at creating a comfortable environment. Being in an environment upon which I have no control is absolutely overwhelming and leads to severely negative emotions for which I have no name. Simply being in the presence of other humans is highly unpleasant, for reasons beyond, but not exclusive of, anxiety.

You have a fucking gift. Exist in the moment and let go of control. It will come back and you may be just "aware" enough to see that which others cannot... the control you actually have. The only real battle you'll ever fight is that of control over yourself.

"When there is no enemy within, the enemies outside cannot hurt you" ~ Old African Proverb


Assuming you're heterosexual, does this mean that you have actively sought out sexual experiences with other men just so you can be sure that you would not enjoy it? If this is not the case, I could apply the exact same logic to your situation and say that lack of experience could perhaps be reinforcing the view that you are heterosexual.

:)

Got me there.


I realize you may not mean it that way, but this is among the worst possible advice you could give to someone who lacks emotional empathy.

Why?

I have kids in school and my son is going to middle school next year. He's very intelligent so getting him to abide by rules and do work 30 times over and beyond when he understood it is very difficult. He sees his reality as "school" and all that encompasses. The people, the process, the penalties.

Is the advice that one day he'll graduate and everything that his life consists of now is simply a stage and not a representation of reality, bad advice?

Were he bullied, I can't tell him it's all alright, nor will teaching him how to destroy his oppressor work out very well for either of us. So the only practical advice I can give is to realize that it's just a game. One day it will end and afterward he'll realize it was nothing to worry about in the first place.

If that's bad advice please explain why. I'm not being combative; I'm honestly confused here. I can understand if you read that to mean your troubles are "nothing" and just "get over it"... that's not what I meant, not at all.
 
And yet the earth remains. We've effed up the planet 5 or 6 times already and life charges forward. I think we fail to realize how little we impact things in the grand scheme. Sure, I can go burn down an entire forest and say quite comfortably that I've destroyed a forest... but the only thing I've done is start a new cycle of life. Even if we destroy the planet through nuclear war and get wiped off... in another million years or so it starts all over again. Sure, we make impacts, but they're spurious in many ways.

Fair enough. In many ways, I do personally agree with this; however, I was attempting to speak from the perspective of wishing to indefinitely maintain human existence. Complete annihilation of the "natural" order of the ecosystem is bound to have significant repercussions for our species, many of which won't even become apparent until it is already too late.

I think strip clubs are pretty filthy, deplorable, and a sign that our society is so sexually deprived that it has to be hidden behind closed doors. On the other hand, I've had to visit many a strip club in a certain job role in the past. Hell, I'm there, might as well enjoy some beautiful sights and cheap cigars.

Regardless of our personal feelings on the situation; it exists. So we can question its necessity or enjoy some cheap cigars. That's my point.

Personally, I feel that doing both is acceptable. Furthermore, questioning the existence of unpleasant situations is necessary in order to make improvements in the future. Were we to simply say, "Well, that's just how it is; might as well deal with it," no significant advancement could ever have been made (and I do consider there to be significant advancement; I'm not a complete Luddite.)


It mostly is though... Now that's not all inclusive. I imagine even the best zen master would not be content in a torture situation... but most situations we find displeasure in are simply our perceptions of the situation. (IMHO)

Ultimately, "pleasure" and "displeasure" are simply processes created by the brain in order to organize stimuli. Regardless, they do have significant impacts on the perceived realities of all conscious beings. Even one who has spent their entire adult life attempting to separate themselves from such worldly things still has a personality that was shaped by these factors within its developmental period.

Good observation, poor conclusion.

The fact is that most of us are simply acting out of instinct in more ways than we care to admit. We call it free will, but most are driven by emotion... unable to distinguish between assumptions made under duress and those that stand up to reason. Emotions can serve us well, but if not under control they'll drastically alter how we perceive things. The media knows this, so every story is designed to elicit a specific emotional response. That's why in the 90's when crime dropped by tens of percentage points, the reporting on said crime increased by hundreds of percentage points. If I can make you afraid of your own shadow then I can do whatever I want under the guise of security. "Propaganda" by all sovereign nations are run right out of the playbook of Edward Bernays (hailing from Nazi Germany). Same principles used by the Nazi's to influence the majority of thinkers.


I agree with everything you said. The two, however, are not mutually exclusive. Perhaps I used a poor example in using the media. A better example would be how people seem to hold on to and readily express completely irrational forms of outrage, such as is seen in many cases of homophobia. One quick look at social media will yield many fantastic examples of this phenomenon. Naturally, this is shaped by cultural factors, but the level to which some people cling to their beliefs implies that they may very well be subconsciously enjoying the sense of superiority.


You have a fucking gift. Exist in the moment and let go of control. It will come back and you may be just "aware" enough to see that which others cannot... the control you actually have. The only real battle you'll ever fight is that of control over yourself.

"When there is no enemy within, the enemies outside cannot hurt you" ~ Old African Proverb


From only hearing a description of my experiences, it is easy to consider it a gift; however, were you to actually experience it, you would understand that it is anything but. The reality is that I have to exist in a society which simply is not designed for people with my particular issues. Even basic levels of "normal" social functioning are nearly impossible for me. Simply hearing a loud noise can result in a complete loss of emotional control, often to the point of descending into compulsive self-injury. Most everything that I could theoretically enjoy is made nearly impossible by these issues.

For example, I absolutely love riding my bicycle, but it the experience is often made extremely unpleasant by the presence of the occasional asshole who buzzes me with his muffler-less pickup truck or who decides to tailgate me while leaning on the horn. There have been numerous times when all I could do was pull over, get as far away from the road as possible, and have a meltdown.

Why?

I have kids in school and my son is going to middle school next year. He's very intelligent so getting him to abide by rules and do work 30 times over and beyond when he understood it is very difficult. He sees his reality as "school" and all that encompasses. The people, the process, the penalties.

Is the advice that one day he'll graduate and everything that his life consists of now is simply a stage and not a representation of reality, bad advice?

Were he bullied, I can't tell him it's all alright, nor will teaching him how to destroy his oppressor work out very well for either of us. So the only practical advice I can give is to realize that it's just a game. One day it will end and afterward he'll realize it was nothing to worry about in the first place.

If that's bad advice please explain why. I'm not being combative; I'm honestly confused here. I can understand if you read that to mean your troubles are "nothing" and just "get over it"... that's not what I meant, not at all.

The part that comes across as bad advice is as follows:

Do you feel bad for the NPC's you kill in Skyrim? Probably not because at some level you understand their pain is illusory.

This is how I instinctively view other people: as objects with which I can interact. While I logically know that they have their own perception, identity, and thoughts just as I do, I simply do not care on any emotional level.

At risk of sounding like a complete psychopath, I will give an example: A few years back, my mother had cancer. She had to go through radiation, multiple surgeries, and many months of just... extreme suffering. I legitimately did not give a shit. I had to spend the entire time feigning emotions that I did not feel, just so those around me would not realize how completely fucked up I am.

Similarly, I do not experience guilt from harming others, nor do I even recognize that I have harmed them unless they outright tell me. The only sense of regret I ever experience from these situations is in the sense that someone has come one step closer to recognizing the sheer depth of my abnormality, and the resulting threat of having my life negatively altered.

The only thing keeping me from lapsing into complete sociopathy and antisocial behaviour is my intellectual concept of ethics. To someone like me, conflating human beings with video game NPCs is effectively saying, "Do whatever the fuck you want; no suffering you cause is real anyway."

I hope this makes sense.
 
Back
Top Bottom