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Old 08-04-2010, 06:45 AM   #31
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Default Re: Political Philosophy

You said that you think that people should vote for Sens and Reps that don't do what the Majority want, but what is best for all society.
Don't you think that what the Majority wants is what's best for the society??
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Old 08-04-2010, 06:56 AM   #32
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Default Re: Political Philosophy

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Originally Posted by l3bbyirv33 View Post
You said that you think that people should vote for Sens and Reps that don't do what the Majority want, but what is best for all society.
Don't you think that what the Majority wants is what's best for the society??
It is very rare that the general public fully understands all the implications of political decisions. People would basically have to devote their entire lives to it in order to be fully informed.

Lol this is one of my favorite quotes:

The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.
-Winston Churchill

And there's always this:

Democracy is the road to socialism.
-Karl Marx
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Old 08-04-2010, 07:32 AM   #33
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Default Re: Political Philosophy

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Yeah I don't like to talk about that much haha lots of racism!
You wouldn't believe it, the girl that worked for me in Kosovo was a Serb, I hired her because she was qualified.

I had a lady come up to me and go "You shouldn't be hiring serbs to work for you, they are dirty and disgusting"

I responded "At least they use toilet paper to wipe their asses, and can bring me pork"

She wasn't a happy camper.
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Old 08-04-2010, 08:06 AM   #34
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Default Re: Political Philosophy

^ +1

"Anyone who wants to be in politics, shouldn't."
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Old 08-04-2010, 08:27 AM   #35
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Default Re: Political Philosophy

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You wouldn't believe it, the girl that worked for me in Kosovo was a Serb, I hired her because she was qualified.

I had a lady come up to me and go "You shouldn't be hiring serbs to work for you, they are dirty and disgusting"

I responded "At least they use toilet paper to wipe their asses, and can bring me pork"

She wasn't a happy camper.
LOL well thanks for proving my point! haha funny story
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Old 08-04-2010, 08:56 AM   #36
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Default Re: Political Philosophy

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Originally Posted by l3bbyirv33 View Post
You said that you think that people should vote for Sens and Reps that don't do what the Majority want, but what is best for all society.
Don't you think that what the Majority wants is what's best for the society??
no, the average voter wants what is best for them.

hence they vote for the person who campaigned on a platform of what is best for them.

think of it this way,

Ignoring the people who say it's not happening, we'll look at global warming.

In the simplest way, carbon dioxide produces global warming, car produce carbon dioxide.

if the world boils we all die

thus we should kerb the usage of cars.


the best thing for society is that we stop using cars.

anyone who campaigns that all cars should be banned, for the greater good of the world would instantly loose most votes.

conversely, a candidate who campaigned that all tax should be reduced on fuel prices to zero, (making fuel and car ownership much cheaper) would instantly gain hundreds of votes.


the irony is that the first candidate is doing what would be best for society, the second candidate is actually making a problem worse.


people don't vote for a greater good, they vote for themselves.
the world boils and we (along with mostly everything else on earth die).



people can put up with a little bit of pain, but they'll still choose what's best for them in the long term.

imagine two candidates again, one likes driving everywhere everyday, the other likes going out for nice meals, drinking wine, they relax in the evenings with a glass of whiskey and enjoy spending weekend with friends eating and drinking.

we have to raise a certain amount of tax revenue.

candidate 1, says cars are great, I drive everyday.
because candidate 1 drives everywhere all the time they never or rarely drink, (because drinking and driving is bad).

Thus candidate 1 says, motoring today is too expensive, it's impossible to enjoy car ownership, and something so essential as owning a car to get to work or to visit family is becoming prohibitively expensive. Vote for me, I'll make car ownership cheaper,

when questioned where they'll find the money, they tell you that they'll raise the duty on alcohol, this will have the added benefit of making drink more expensive and clearing up the state of the nation with regards the amount of alcoholics, it'll free up hospital resources, make the nation healthier... etc etc etc

Candidate 2 says, Alcohol is too expensive, it's become so prohibitively expensive to be able to do something so essential as to relax and socialise with friends. the average voter today cannot afford to have a beer on a Friday night after work, the average voter is being punished in the name of improving the nations health by trying to make alcohol more expensive. candidate 2 says vote for me and I'll relax return the world to a better time, when you weren't working half a day to pay to go out for a beer after work.

when questioned where they'll get the money from, they say that they'll raise money by reducing what they see as a government subsidy on motoring, and the effects of motoring, they'll introduce newer clean air bills, they'll make motoring more expensive, this will clean up the air, clean up the planet, make cities safer, encourage people to car pool, encourage people to walk places and improve their fitness...


both have adequate points...
now the question is this,

who would you vote for and why?

I imagine a person who has to drive daily is going to think that they need to have their car, so they'll vote for candidate A, Sure they can pretend that they are after a greater good, cleaning up the streets, stopping binge drinking etc, but really, they've voted for themselves and what they need, they'll accept that the bottle of wine that they get themselves in a restaurant everyone and a while whilst they and their wife goes out for dinner may be a little more expensive. but that's the cost of doing a greater good.

a person who doesn't drive, we'll say someone who works in construction, might vote for person B, they like the beer that they get at the end of the week, they work damned hard to get that bottle of frosty cold beer, and after working a hard week they damned well need it!
they too can pretend that they've voted for a greater good, cleaner air and safer streets, they'll accept that the bus ticket that they buy every once in a while when they want to go across town is more expensive, after all that's just the cost of doing a greater good.


but really, both people voted for themselves. they can pretend they voted for a greater good, but they didn't.

if candidate 3 came along and promised to raise tax dollars on fuel and alcohol, with no reductions elsewhere they wouldn't get any votes. because nobody would see that it'd benefit them, they'd just see that there was the government looking to take away even more of their hard earned money.



sure, you'll get your mother earth worshipping hippies, whose body is a temple, and they'd never poison it with alcohol, they'll vote for candidate C because it cleans up the air and makes the word a better place.

it seems like they voted for a greater good, I mean they voted to be taxed more, whilst receiving no benefits themselves. they really did vote for a greater good.

but we call those kinds of people "the lunatic fringe" for a reason.
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Old 08-06-2010, 01:17 AM   #37
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Default Re: Political Philosophy

Ahh very true.
I deny my dream and inherit your's, it makes much more sense, plus you probably weren't sleep deprived and high on caffeine and not making much sense to anyone you talked to at teh time you wrote this
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Old 08-06-2010, 10:04 PM   #38
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Default Re: Political Philosophy

Ok very interesting post root. I can argue with you all day about global warming but that's not what I'm going to say. The greater good should not overweigh what the majority of people feel. A candidate that campaigns on hundreds of taxes for green energy, that taxes cars will not get many votes because most of the country drives cars. Even though it would be better for no one to drive cars it just can't happen. There isn't enough money to pay for public transportation everywhere, and you can't ride your bike to someplace 50 miles away. If the government decides to tax cars to get you to stop buying them another thing happens. The taxes give millions of dollars to the government which is mostly mispent. The money that is supossedly collected to save the enviroment goes away to other projects completely unrelated to green energy.

Ultimately the government doesn't know how to spend money or can't spend it rather quickly.

Take for example the stimulus bill rammed through a few months ago. Pelosi called for a second stimulus bill to "create more jobs". However 421 Billion dollars remain unspent on projects that a not due to be completed until 2016. Most of the projects start in 2011 or 2012, on mainly pork projects that don't create many jobs.

The United States has a Republic because people are supposed to vote for the candidate that best represents them. The reason why a democracy can not work is because 400 million people do not have time to read a few hundred pages of legislation. The problem is currently neither will our government. The bills are being rammed through because of two reasons:

A. If there is time to read the bill reading the hundreds of pork projects injected in would cause it to not pass through which also ties with the next reason.

B. The rammed bills cause a huge backlash against them which tells them that their days in power are numbered. Most polls show that people are turning back to the Republicans and are voting the Democrats out of power. Since they only have a few more months they will try to pass through everything they can before they are voted out.
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Old 08-07-2010, 11:18 AM   #39
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Default Re: Political Philosophy

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Ok very interesting post root. I can argue with you all day about global warming but that's not what I'm going to say.
probably for the best since I already said...
Quote:
Ignoring the people who say it's not happening, we'll look at global warming.
I wasn't saying that global warming was, or indeed was not happening, I used it as a tool to illustrate a point.

the fact is that nobody actually knows for sure what is happening. (some claim to), but nobody actually does.

Quote:
The greater good should not overweigh what the majority of people feel.
yes, it should, and often many times it does. it's like telling a party of children that they can't eat sweets for dinner, it's not what the majority (of the kids) want, but it is for the best. when it comes the the kind of advanced economic, or science then you can think of us (the public) like a bunch of kids, we want to eat sweets for tea, someone needs to tell us no.
(and just like how kids don't understand why they can't eat candy for dinner, most of us don't understand why we can't have cheaper petrol, or cheaper healthcare etc).
Quote:
A candidate that campaigns on hundreds of taxes for green energy, that taxes cars will not get many votes because most of the country drives cars. Even though it would be better for no one to drive cars it just can't happen.
Read my post again, that's exactly what I said.

Quote:
There isn't enough money to pay for public transportation everywhere,
that's because most services are not full, if there was only public transport, then public transport would be better because the network could expand due to increased passenger revenue.

Quote:
The taxes give millions of dollars to the government which is mostly mispent. The money that is supossedly collected to save the enviroment goes away to other projects completely unrelated to green energy.
Define miss-spent?

is that the bank bailout? the spend your way out of recession? is that the car industry bail out?
or is it farmer subsidies? is it welfare programs? etc???

Quote:
B. The rammed bills cause a huge backlash against them which tells them that their days in power are numbered. Most polls show that people are turning back to the Republicans and are voting the Democrats out of power. Since they only have a few more months they will try to pass through everything they can before they are voted out.
you're wrong about that second point...

and the reason that your wrong is because of your point A.

the fact is that 90% of the population can't be bothered to read party manifestos, so they don't know what they are voting for. they also don't know what bills their voted candidates are approving, or denying, they don't now if they support legislation for or against lots of things, and that's because... your average person simply doesn't understand it...

it really is as simple as that.

when Obama came to power he came on the back of slogans about change, he was a different party to the guy who'd been in the last two terms. he was a change...

trouble is, now people don't see the change that they were promised...

sooner or later the next party will start their campaign for change, and tell you how bad the current government is and how bad life is and how they can change things.

and they'll get voted in.

then the next time an election comes the democrats will once more be on the vote for change, vote for the future bandwagon, an things will change again. (well the government will change, things probably won't change)

there are a lot of people that are either red (through and through) or (true) blue. they can will do and always will vote for their side...

these people do not decide elections, it's floating voters that decide elections...
that's why all policies are watered down for manifestos, they make views not look extreme, like how the democrats said that they weren't against oil exploration, they would just review it. now that they had a small reason to try to ban it they did.
and that decision had to go to court to be overturned.

new parties promise sweets for dinner and free ponies for everyone.
and it works, people are stupid, don't read the small print and couldn't even fathom the maths to decide if it's affordable.

so that party gets in, and they don't deliver on their promises, things stay just as crappy. and the next time an election comes around. the next party will be offering a bag full of magic beans.
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