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Old 10-25-2009, 01:45 PM   #11
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Default Re: Police cite drivers who don't speak English

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Originally Posted by ArrizX View Post
Not the point.

What is the language that everyone actually speaks? What do you speak?
Well, if I lived in Miami, I'd probably speak more Spanish than English.
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Old 10-25-2009, 02:16 PM   #12
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Default Re: Police cite drivers who don't speak English

My President addresses our nation in english, So I'll go with that. I'll chime in more on this after the Minnesota and Steelers game.
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Old 10-25-2009, 02:23 PM   #13
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Default Re: Police cite drivers who don't speak English

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Originally Posted by ArrizX View Post
Not the point.

What is the language that everyone actually speaks? What do you speak?
I speak English, Cantonese and Mandarin.

Learning another language is one hell of a feat. Should everyone speak English in this country? Sure. Can we force them to? No. You should realize that all immigrants start from somewhere. For all we know, this woman could be in the middle of taking classes.
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Old 10-25-2009, 02:45 PM   #14
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Default Re: Police cite drivers who don't speak English

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Originally Posted by FlightSimBoy View Post
http://news.aol.com/article/dallas-p...ho-dont/735298

I don't know what to say about this.

Ok, maybe I do. These people were legal citizens of our great country. They should understand English well enough to carry on a conversation with a police officer, or anyone for that matter.

I realize it is very hard to learn a new language for some people. For me, it it is the exact opposite. But many people never fully understand a foreign language. Hell, a lot of people don't fully understand their native language.

But I wish a day came when this country had an official national language. As of now, we have none. Sure, English is our primary language, but Spanish is catching up.. Too fast. Would I like to go to my Mexican restaraunt and be able to order in Spanish? Sure, why not. Would I like to go to Taco Bell, KFC, McDonalds, or other places like this and order in Spanish? The answer is NO.

Opinions?
Do you know what it means to have English as an official language?
It doesnt mean everyone has to speak it. It means, gov't issued forms only NEED to come in English, and accommodations don't need to be made.
Having English as an official language is plain stupid. Most people want it, but don't actually understand what it means.
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Old 10-25-2009, 03:07 PM   #15
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Default Re: Police cite drivers who don't speak English

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Originally Posted by Teny View Post
Well, I don't think it's right for the people who came to America not knowing English so their kids can have a nice, decent life, and be a typical American dream chasers.

I am an immigrant in America, I was born in Venezuela, and my parents learned Spanish because of it, my mom still remember parts of it, and my dad knows it fully. However, my parents only knows English at an elementary level, so they can't really communicate, and needs me to help them translate. My dad knows Cantonese (an dialect of Chinese), Spanish, and a bit of English, while my mom knows Mandarin (another dialect of Chinese), Cantonese, and a bit of English. So they both speak over 2 languages, which in my opinion is better than me, I only know English, and a bit of Cantonese.

You should know what's my side of opinion in this matter by now.
Can I ask how long your parents have been in the US now?
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Old 10-25-2009, 05:25 PM   #16
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Default Re: Police cite drivers who don't speak English

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And yeah they don't just affect your life, but they affect mine too. Ever try talking to someone who can't speak your language period, or who has to speak it through their kid?
Throughout my whole middle school year, all I did was hang out with the people that barely even knows English. They all had to take ESL while I was taking an regular English class, so communication was a bit of a problem, but we still had fun and kind of know what each other was talking about.

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Originally Posted by ArrizX View Post
What is the language that everyone actually speaks? What do you speak?
I speak fluent English, and Cantonese at an elementary level (as I was told), right now I am trying to learn Mandarin and Japanese.

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Originally Posted by 01001010 View Post
I speak English, Cantonese and Mandarin.
That's cool, I am a bit jealous too for some reason.

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Originally Posted by David Lindon View Post
Can I ask how long your parents have been in the US now?
I think about 12-13 years now. My dad works at a Chinese restaurant so there isn't much English communication going on, but he does try an read his mail and use an dictionary and try to learn a few words now and then, while my Mom works at a Marriott hotel, so there are quite a bit of English, where she learned most of her English. They both passed the citizen test on their first try, they studied about 5 hours a day or so until the test day. They didn't do any of this for themselves, they did it for my brother and me because the US was a better place to live than China was back then. They still need my brother and me to translate a few things though, like taking a car for repairs.

Isn't people around the world one reason why the US is so great?
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Old 10-27-2009, 10:06 AM   #17
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Default Re: Police cite drivers who don't speak English

I hope that my views are not too controversial, or upset anyone too much...
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Originally Posted by Teny View Post
So then if some US residents want to live in other countries, they should spend a couple to few years to learn that language before they should actually buy the ticket to move there? What about doing business and you need to reside there for a few months?
Yes,

exactly that. if you can't speak the language of a country then how will you integrate into society? if you don't want to integrate then moving to a country and living in small areas, (like china towns) is little more than colonisation.
if you don't want to learn a language so that you can successfully integrate then why do you even want to go there?
if you can't speak a language then how do you propose to do business there successfully?

personally before i even go on holiday to a place i make an attempt to learn some of the language, admittedly not a lot, but enough to get by, enough to ask for directions, enough to ask for assistance to be able to buy stuff, to be able to be polite and to be able to read and interporate signs etc.

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A lot of people don't have the self-motivation to learn an different language, or even have the money to pay for lessons. Places like Hong Kong and Japan started to have English almost everywhere, heck, even learning English is mandatory in Japan.
you don't need money to pay for lessons, there are plenty of free courses available on-line that can show you the characters/words and plenty of resources to learn by audio tape or audio download courses. all of these things can be gotten for free. most towns have free public libraries with free internet access. basically if you don't learn it's a self motivation issue, not a resource issue.
and I struggle to believe that a person can have the self motivation to uproot their life and family and move half way round the world, or to a different country (even if it was only a neighbouring country), yet not have the self motivation to learn a language. so that their life can be more complete inside of that country.

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That's just disrespectful,
I find it more disrespectful that someone should immigrate to a country and expect that country to bend over backwards for them, (e.g producing road signs in different languages).
Quote:
maybe because I am an immigrant, and these things affects my life. This is one reason why I don't want to live in the US. Don't worry, my parents are moving back to China once I graduate college and get a successful job, so that's two less people you have to worry about, and maybe me if I still continue to get discriminated against, although I might have a hard time communicating with them like how my parents are now.
Why do you feel discriminated against?

from this thread it sounds like you feel that you're discriminated against because you haven't taken the time to learn the most popular language in the country that you decided to live in? a language that is recognised as the de facto standard?

would you feel that I was discriminated against if I moved to China and demanded that road signs should be in English, that the police should speak my language, that there was no need for me to try to integrate by learning the language that most people in that area spoke and that instead argued everyone else should try to accommodate me?

and if the police learn my language what about the German guy who also goes to live there, do that Chinese police need to know Chinese (all dialects) and English, and German, and any other language?

really, I have to say that if I CHOOSE to move to a foreign country I would expect that it would be up to me to adapt, up to me to learn the language that everyone spoke so that I could integrate, up to me to learn customs and traditions, up to me to make myself at home there, not try to make there my home.
America is not China, FACT.

You seem to say that your family has moved to America for the benefits of a western life and education, but as soon as you have what you need you'll be off again?

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Originally Posted by superman22x View Post
Do you know what it means to have English as an official language?
It doesn't mean everyone has to speak it. It means, gov't issued forms only NEED to come in English, and accommodations don't need to be made.
Having English as an official language is plain stupid. Most people want it, but don't actually understand what it means.
no, that would be the case if there were only one recognised language.
whilst there is no official language in Britain there are many recognised languages, and legal forms are provided in all recognised languages. you can have an official language and recognise other languages

for example, the European union has 23 official languages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union#Languages
yet welsh is not an official language, but it is a recognised language, and so official forms can be written/requested in welsh and in communication with the governing body.


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Originally Posted by Teny View Post
I think about 12-13 years now.
You don't think that living in a country for more than a decade is long enough to learn a language? if I moved to France I'd hope that after 13 years I could speak French well enough to have a life! i'd consider it a bit of a massive fail personally if in 13 years I couldn't learn a language, or at least most of it whilst being immersed in it on a daily basis!

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they studied about 5 hours a day or so until the test day.
so with what you were saying above... they clearly have the motivation to study, when and if it suits them, and yet don't bother to carry on that study to continue to learn a language?
Quote:
the US was a better place to live than China was back then. They still need my brother and me to translate a few things though, like taking a car for repairs.
How does this make them feel?
personally I'd find it embarrassing and degrading to have to rely on my kids to translate for me, perhaps not at first, but after a decade or more I'd have hoped to have been able to fully integrate into a society.

You say that your parents are moving back to China? is this because they are discriminated against? or because they are unable to integrate through an obvious barrier of language? if they are discriminated against then there is something wrong here, and I believe that discrimination is illegal. if they feel that they are discriminated against because they can't understand what someone is saying this is their failing...

you say about going to the garage, does the garage charge them more for doing the job because they can't speak English? this is discrimination, xenophobia and racism.
or do they feel that the garage probably over charges them because they can't speak English? (this is also discrimination, xenophobia and racism, though not on the part of the garage).


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Isn't people around the world one reason why the US is so great?
yes, I don't doubt that. and nobody ever questioned that,
the reason that society is great is that great minds are free to move around the world.
consider this:
Albert Einstein moved from Germany to America. when he did this he learned English.
if he hadn't learned English to be able to integrate properly he'd have been marginalised, his theories would not have emerged and he wouldn't have been able to work with teams of British and American scientists on the Manhattan project.

yes, migration and emigration does make a country a better place, and society IS enriched with new blood, new customs and new traditions. but the only way that the ideas customs beliefs and traditions can be shared with the society that you've moved to is if you learn to communicate with that society.
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Old 10-27-2009, 12:47 PM   #18
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Default Re: Police cite drivers who don't speak English

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Yes,

exactly that. if you can't speak the language of a country then how will you integrate into society? if you don't want to integrate then moving to a country and living in small areas, (like china towns) is little more than colonisation.
if you don't want to learn a language so that you can successfully integrate then why do you even want to go there?
if you can't speak a language then how do you propose to do business there successfully?
For their kids, I don't know if you have kids or not, but if you live in country that is corrupt and ruled by somebody that's not a very good leader, wouldn't you want to move to have a better life not just for yourself but for you kids too? Isn't that why most people move to the US?

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you don't need money to pay for lessons, there are plenty of free courses available on-line that can show you the characters/words and plenty of resources to learn by audio tape or audio download courses. all of these things can be gotten for free. most towns have free public libraries with free internet access. basically if you don't learn it's a self motivation issue, not a resource issue.
and I struggle to believe that a person can have the self motivation to uproot their life and family and move half way round the world, or to a different country (even if it was only a neighbouring country), yet not have the self motivation to learn a language. so that their life can be more complete inside of that country.
But how many immigrants or even American born even know about this?

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Originally Posted by root View Post
I find it more disrespectful that someone should immigrate to a country and expect that country to bend over backwards for them, (e.g producing road signs in different languages).
Doesn't US tourist do the same thing? I saw some people that spoke English that went to China, and expect some of them to know how to speak English. Like I said, places like HK and Japan has English at most places, so they did produce signs in different languages. I never actually met anybody that expected their native language to be on signs and stuff. They only expect places like a Chinese restaurant, or a place that only sells air tickets to China.

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Originally Posted by root View Post
Why do you feel discriminated against?

from this thread it sounds like you feel that you're discriminated against because you haven't taken the time to learn the most popular language in the country that you decided to live in? a language that is recognised as the de facto standard?

You seem to say that your family has moved to America for the benefits of a western life and education, but as soon as you have what you need you'll be off again?
I feel discriminated because I am Chinese, not because of any language problems, I know more English than Chinese because I have been going to school in the US since kindergarten.
My parents see China as a better place now, which is why they want to move back, and because it's where all their family members are, wouldn't you want to see and be with your family as much as you can?
I choose to go because of how I was treated back then because of my race, and I still see it now and then. Look around, and you will see that most people group other people by race and treat each other differently.

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Originally Posted by root View Post
You don't think that living in a country for more than a decade is long enough to learn a language? if I moved to France I'd hope that after 13 years I could speak French well enough to have a life! i'd consider it a bit of a massive fail personally if in 13 years I couldn't learn a language, or at least most of it whilst being immersed in it on a daily basis!
.
Depends on the person really, I already said my parents knows English enough to get by, but when you talk to them, you have to talk like you are talking to a kid.
Haven't people told you that English is one of the hardest language to learn?

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Originally Posted by root View Post
so with what you were saying above... they clearly have the motivation to study, when and if it suits them, and yet don't bother to carry on that study to continue to learn a language?
Doesn't most people do the same thing, especially in college? They learn what they need just to get that credit, but completely forget once a new semester starts. My parents are still learning English, I never said they stopped.

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Originally Posted by root View Post
How does this make them feel?
personally I'd find it embarrassing and degrading to have to rely on my kids to translate for me, perhaps not at first, but after a decade or more I'd have hoped to have been able to fully integrate into a society.
I really don't mind, they have been raising me up to now and still continues, it's only right help back in return. They are actually happy that I am able to help them translate.

If you were walking on the street and are lost, you see somebody (a tourist that doesn't know the native language, but you don't know). You go up to them and ask them a question, and they don't know how to reply, wouldn't you assume that this is just another person that is an immigrant living in your country and not an tourist?

Like you
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I hope that my views are not too controversial, or upset anyone too much...
and like I said, I don't blame any of you guys, just showing my views because of how I was raised.
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Old 10-27-2009, 03:27 PM   #19
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Default Re: Police cite drivers who don't speak English

All right, my two cents...

First, if you moved here and brought your family here with the intention of living here, raising a family here, earning a living here, then you and everyone you brought with you should absolutely learn to speak English. I wouldn't have the balls to move my family to another country and just expect the people there to go out of their way to communicate with me in my language. That seriously takes some nerve.
Secondly, it really irritates me when immigrants move here, yet express how great their home country is every chance they get, have no respect for the traditions and customs of this country (including learning the language) and basically try to recreate their home country here. If their home countries are so great, then why come here at all? If you want a better life for your family (the usual reason given for coming here), then why not spend your time and effort making your own country a great place to live?
Before you guys start ripping into me, I'm not talking about people who come here legally, learn the language and are in to being American.
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Old 10-27-2009, 07:05 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Teny View Post
For their kids, I don't know if you have kids or not, but if you live in country that is corrupt and ruled by somebody that's not a very good leader, wouldn't you want to move to have a better life not just for yourself but for you kids too? Isn't that why most people move to the US?
I do have a kid (a daughter), and yes if I was living in a corrupt regieme or under a totalitarian, extreme (facist or socialist) government I would want to get myself and my child out of that country.

But I wasn't really questioning why your parents moved there,



Quote:
But how many immigrants or even American born even know about this?
how many people know that there are libraries in many town where you can borrow books, on a variety of different subjects, including language tution books? I would hope a lot.
public libraries are not the preserve of the free world, even 'bananna republics' and the kind of controlled states that I agreed that I'd want to get out of have public libraries.


Quote:
Doesn't US tourist do the same thing? I saw some people that spoke English that went to China, and expect some of them to know how to speak English. Like I said, places like HK and Japan has English at most places, so they did produce signs in different languages. I never actually met anybody that expected their native language to be on signs and stuff. They only expect places like a Chinese restaurant, or a place that only sells air tickets to China.
in the first case of the tourists, I didn't say that ignorance was the preserve of non-english speakers, in fact far from it, there are more english speakers in the world that any other language, and thus more ignorant people speak english than any other speaking people, (assuming even distribution!).
I would think that going to a forgein country and just expecting that of course people will know english is just as stupid as thinking of course people will know chinese... if you go to china, you'd do well to learn chinese, go to russia you;d do well to learn russian.
I'm not saying that (as a tourist) you should become fluent, but knowing how to ask where a hotel/restaurant/toilet are pretty essential phrases, which could at least be written down!
as for the second
in places in London in the UK there are towns that have bengali text on them, now, I'm in two minds about this. in some ways it simply doesn't bother me, the english text is still there, and if it's making someone else's life easier then why not.
on the other hand, I do firmly believe that if you intend to settle in a country the very least you can do is learn the language or dialect most widely spoken in that country.



Quote:
I feel discriminated because I am Chinese, not because of any language problems, I know more English than Chinese because I have been going to school in the US since kindergarten.
My parents see China as a better place now, which is why they want to move back, and because it's where all their family members are, wouldn't you want to see and be with your family as much as you can?
I choose to go because of how I was treated back then because of my race, and I still see it now and then. Look around, and you will see that most people group other people by race and treat each other differently.
why would anyone discriminate against you because you are chinese?
you sound like a well rounded individual who has 'integrated' fully, you know and speak english, you have english speaking friends... you are to all intent and purpose an american, (regardless of your genes or 'ethinic look')?
the simple reason is that people will essentially tar people with the same brush...
some people know a chinese guy who has made no effort to learn any english, so they'll assume that all chinese people are too lazy to learn english.
then they get around to feeling that an entier country is full of lazy people who can't be bothered to learn about other people.
in short racism is bad, I don't agree with it, but I do understand that the causes of it are related to people looking for differences looking for a sign of weakness in said differences and then deciding that all diffrent people are the same as the one worst example that they've seen.


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Doesn't most people do the same thing, especially in college? They learn what they need just to get that credit, but completely forget once a new semester starts. My parents are still learning English, I never said they stopped.
I think that integrating into a society that you've chosen to live in to better and enrich your own life and that of your children is different from studdying a course in college where the aim is to get a qualificaion for the point of getting a job, or getting enough credit to progress to university.

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I really don't mind, they have been raising me up to now and still continues, it's only right help back in return. They are actually happy that I am able to help them translate.
of course you don't mind! and if I were you I wouldn't mind either, I'd do anything I reasonably could to help my parents.
the question I'm asking is how they feel about it.
as I said I think that if I had to live vicariously through my children through my own lack of knowledge about a language I'd feel pretty terrible about it.

Quote:
If you were walking on the street and are lost, you see somebody (a tourist that doesn't know the native language, but you don't know). You go up to them and ask them a question, and they don't know how to reply, wouldn't you assume that this is just another person that is an immigrant living in your country and not an tourist?
I would like to say that I wouldn't jump to that conclusion, but I'll have to wait and see if the occasion ever occurs.
that said, I live in Oxford, it's a town that attracts many tourists, so I would probably assume that they were a tourist. the only other place I travel to regularly is london, again a big tourist town.



you say that your parents can speak english, so they aren't really involved in this discussion since they have made the effort to integrate into the society that they've chosen to live in, by undertaking the frankly massive task of learning a second language.
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