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Old 10-26-2012, 02:23 AM   #1
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Default The "Non-Political" Political Thread

Rules of this thread: Please do NOT engage in candidate specific attacks. The candidates don't matter here. I wish to discuss some of what is presented by the entire process and not just 'Joebama thinks this and my shirt suffered.'

So, the debates are done and over with. A President will be decided.

I'll start off with the economy. It seems that every election, our economy is worse than it's ever been. It is by no means perfect, but I don't see it (at least in my area) as it is portrayed in every commercial or discussion point. Yes, people are out of jobs, but the sucking chest wound has been treated and the breathing has resumed IMO. We are better off now than we were were at several times and I don't think any one man/party gets sole bragging rights. It almost appears that these issues are raised as they are because the perception is created by the observer in a relative way that X candidate will make their own personal situation better than it is now. "Economy better == me richer" seems to be the accepted belief by many, not the reality that each citizen is separated in a small way, and enough that increased jobs may not produce more wealth for the already employed. If all were employed, then such a situation may arise. X Million people simply getting a job doesn't create another rung in the ladder. Campaigns seem use this as a "I'm the money tree" approach IMHO.

Other thoughts?
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Old 10-26-2012, 03:19 AM   #2
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With respect to the economy, things are much more complicated than people make it out to be. Somebody had mentioned recently that 46,000 new unemployment claims were filed as if it were the end of the world and I pointed out that a more reliable measure is a four-week moving average that gives a better indication on the trend in this area (in fact new unemployment claims dropped off by 23,000 the following week, but you won't see me going out into the streets celebrating).

Many are aware that the US unemployment rate dropped off to 7.8%. Someone I know said it's because the unemployed have given up looking for work. Oh really? I don't believe that in general; the immediate reason is that people's unemployment insurance has run out. That would be the main reason, but isn't it also true that some people retire, maybe a few have found jobs, maybe a fair portion live in a two-income (or more) household that would cushion the loss of a job, etc.? I can ask are welfare rolls moving up?

Then we have the housing market with foreclosures and new housing starts, manufacturing, GDP and a myriad of measures. I put forth that there is no simple way of telling how the economy is doing let alone how much influence a President has over it if he has any at all.
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Old 10-26-2012, 04:31 AM   #3
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Default Re: The "Non-Political" Political Thread

I agree that the "economy" is a very complex issue. However, for me, it can be simplified rather easily.

When you go to sell your house, and find it's worth 35% less than it should be worth, you may have a bad economy.

When the unemployment continues to be unreasonably high, (over 6%), for years, you may have a bad economy.

When salary increases by employers is constantly running 5% under what it should be, you may have a bad economy.

When month after month, year after year, the hotel, motel, resort businesses continue to report lower that expected revenue, you may have a bad economy.

When, the Fed has to continue to print unreasonable amounts of money, year after year, to try and stimulate business, you may have a bad economy.

When the result of all that money printing, is unreasonably low interest rates, that creates unrealistic stock prices, and the threat of another recession, you may have a bad economy.

When older folks can no longer count on a steady income from CD accounts, Bond Funds, and Treasury Notes, because the interest rates are too low to support income growth, you may have a bad economy.

When all of the above is valid at the same time, you do have a very bad economy!

Now, your only decision is which of the candidates is best qualified to rectify the economy, and you vote for that person. Unless of course, you're one of those people who feels that the economy is moving in the right direction, and will soon correct itself. Then you don't have to vote at all, and can go back to watching cartoons on TV.
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:36 AM   #4
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My thoughts:
Stop putting junk mail flyers in my mailbox when all I do is recycle them.
Stop calling me and telling me your doing a survey and want to know who I'm going to vote for.

And lastly:
STOP CALLING ME AT 8:30 PM WHEN MY TODDLER IS TRYING TO SLEEP!!

I live in Ohio which is a huge swing state so I get so much crap each day - at least 2 flyers and at least 3 phone calls a day. It's stupid because now all you've done is make me not want to vote for you.
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:54 AM   #5
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Default Re: The "Non-Political" Political Thread

I know what you mean. I live in the prized swing state of Florida, with 29 Electoral College votes. I get 2 to 3 phone calls a day, and tons of mail.

For me it's a little worse because I'm an Independent, who has voted both Republican, and Democrat over the years, so I get slammed from both parties.

I'll be very curious to see how many people voted for the team of Roseanne Barr, and Cindy Sheehan. Two certifiable loonies, that will probably get several hundred thousand votes. Hee, only in America!
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Old 10-27-2012, 03:28 AM   #6
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@ iPwn Interesting stuff. Here's a small part of my take on things.

As I see it what's wrong with our country is the people living in it.
Now my dad belonged to the aerospace workers union and when he passed away they were there to help out. But some of the other unions are not so great. Automotive for example. They strike for more money at the drop of a hat. That increase costs the automotive industry large chunks of money that gets passed on to the end consumer. Cars in this country costing too much have prospective buyers looking at cheaper imports. To counter that the American car dealers backed by the manufactures, have cash back and discounts. In the end but not always, dealers and manufactures take a loss to move the product and take a write off to balance the books. And who do you think takes the hit for those write offs? Yup, you're right, us. The government lets them do that which increases the deficit which gets passed on to us in higher taxes.
There is so much wrong with this country you'd need the paper from the rain forest trees to list it all. People needs to recognized that they are the problem. And until the American public gets it through their skulls they are going to have to take an active part in getting our economy back under control, they will continue to blame the idiots in government for the problems and go on their merry little way.
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Old 10-27-2012, 10:51 PM   #7
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@Seti, that's not entirely accurate and I'll explain.

Make no mistake that the manufacturers are raking in money. Each year they have to buy bigger rakes. When employees strike for additional wages, the manufacturer could very easily pay those wages; they simply choose to not see a smaller income check themselves, resulting in higher prices. The margin between Cost of Production and MSRP is pretty large. I work for a company that resells product. We buy it for pennies and then only mark down the original cost a few dollars. One year, they gave every employee a large "Christmas Bonus" due to record profits. The very next year, they again had record profits, but didn't give a bonus because "4th Quarter didn't go so well." The issue with our economy (IMO) is the complete lack of regulation on profit. That's not to say that I am against profit, but the executives should not take home 40% of wages either. This recurring element of greed seems to be prevalent at every job. At one establishment, we did outsourcing. When I was promoted to Operations Manager I got in good with the executive team and learned of their secret. [Company] pays their internal employees $45/hr, and outsources to [OutsourceCompany], paying $40/hr for the same job. [OutsourceCompany] then pays their employees $8/hr and profits the remaining $32/hr per FTE. That type of business model is extremely profitable, but it is exactly what is wrong with our economy. Anyone and everyone is trying to bleed the blue collar population for everything they have as fast as they can. Since the blue collar population is what makes the country run, the Government provides small regulation and 'smoke in mirrors' tactics to keep the dying patient alive long enough for the next victim to walk through the door.

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The President actually has a whole lot of control over it. Thanks to the this war on terrorism, it appears that our elected idiots can do anything without any type of permission. The issue we truly face in government is prostitution. The Lobbyists really control the policies, not the politicians. They simply proxy a vote for Exxon or Halliburton. I think if Ron Paul were elected (as crazy as that might sound), the population would see how much power one man can have. While not legal or constitutional, it happens almost daily.
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Old 10-28-2012, 08:54 AM   #8
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After all the political rhetoric, smoke, and BS, clears, it all boils down to this...

"The inherent vice of Capitalism is the unequal sharing of wealth. The inherent virtue of Socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."
Winston Churchill

You decide what you want. Personally, I worked very hard all my life, and never felt any sense of entitlement from the government. As a result, I was rewarded both financially, as well as in self gratification. So, I'll take the former of Mr. Churchill's suggestions.
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Old 10-28-2012, 09:10 AM   #9
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So you prefer socialism?
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Old 10-28-2012, 09:17 AM   #10
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So you prefer socialism?
No, I said...."I'll take the former of Mr. Churchill's suggestions."

Former, meaning the first part of his statement.
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Old 10-28-2012, 01:24 PM   #11
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So you prefer socialism?
I don't understand why so many people put a 'dangerous' stigma on this word or ideal. Socialism works in many applications, such as Canada's healthcare system. It probably isn't applicable everywhere, but please stop dealing in absolutes. That's the biggest, the absolute biggest and most retarded @$$ problem with this country. You are either A, or you are B, so pick a side and lets fight!

The vast complexity of this world and everything contained within cannot be lumped into 1 of 2 options.
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Old 10-28-2012, 01:57 PM   #12
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I don't understand why so many people put a 'dangerous' stigma on this word or ideal. Socialism works in many applications, such as Canada's healthcare system. It probably isn't applicable everywhere, but please stop dealing in absolutes. That's the biggest, the absolute biggest and most retarded @$$ problem with this country. You are either A, or you are B, so pick a side and lets fight!

The vast complexity of this world and everything contained within cannot be lumped into 1 of 2 options.

Sure it can...I'll take option A, because option B sucks, just look at Greece, Spain, and any number of other countries that have been handing out entitlements to it's people for years, and are now broke.

Margaret Thacher, was very correct when she said...."The problem with Socialism, is the fact that it's only a matter of time before the people with money, no longer have any, to support those that don't.

Besides, I thought this was supposed to be a "Non-Political" thread.
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Old 10-28-2012, 05:36 PM   #13
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Sure it can...I'll take option A, because option B sucks, just look at Greece, Spain, and any number of other countries that have been handing out entitlements to it's people for years, and are now broke.

Margaret Thacher, was very correct when she said...."The problem with Socialism, is the fact that it's only a matter of time before the people with money, no longer have any, to support those that don't.

Besides, I thought this was supposed to be a "Non-Political" thread.
You dont want a system that is based completely and absolutely of capitalism though , because what are you going to do when those who have nothing turn to crime and revolution to get what they want ? and you with your wealth and assets are the direct target of that ?

I have long believed that you cannot have a system that is based absolutely of socialism or capitalism ,unfortunately due to the way society is constructed in the 21st century You have to have capitalism in order to make the bulk of the wealth that the rest of the state then relies on ,in order to fund innovation and development and in order to make a successful rich and powerful ruling class.

However you need to tax this wealth generating public sector in order to provide education , essential services and socialist measures such as the welfare state to provide for those who cant provide for themselves the most vulnerable people in society . Sure some people take advantage of the welfare state provisions but there are lots of people out there who cant work not because they dont want to or because there isnt a job but because they are disabled for example , The state has to provide for those people ,the state also has to provide for people at times when the private sector cannot provide them with jobs otherwise as I previously mentioned they turn to crime because they have no alternative .

If you let the free market reign supreme you would have much much deeper class divisions than you currently have amongst other things , it might even be reasonable to suggest a completely unregulated free market would result in slavery of some form is that something that you would want to see ?

I do believe you are taking Margaret Thatcher slightly out of context with that quote, and lets face it she wasn't the most popular prime minister this country has ever had . During her reign she did not completely abolish welfare state provisions and in fact spending on things such as the NHS increased in real terms during her time in office ,some say perhaps that was for limitations imposed on her by the constitutional structure of the UK but who knows , one thing is for sure her policies where influenced by monetarist thinking , and her response to the recession in the early 80's was informed by her economic beliefs , how surprising that a few years later unemployment peaked at 12.5% of the workforce , Now despite having inflation "under control" you have a massive number of unemployed who you have to provide for at considerable cost

I think one of the most shocking things for me that i am seeing as a result of this recession is the masses of unemployed young people who could possibly end up being a generation on the scrapheap unable to get anywhere in their lives because they have started of in their adult life without a job , how are they to have any aspirations of job experience both of which are required to progress and climb the career ladder

Answer this , what do you propose is done to provide for those who are unable to provide for themselves in your completely capitalist view of how things should be ?
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Old 10-28-2012, 06:43 PM   #14
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You dont want a system that is based completely and absolutely of capitalism though , because what are you going to do when those who have nothing turn to crime and revolution to get what they want ? and you with your wealth and assets are the direct target of that ? I have no idea where you are located. Here in the U.S., it is extremely unlikely that a "revolution", such as you describe would ever take place. Why? Because revolutions are created by those who have nothing, and therefore, have nothing to lose.

The people here are collecting too much from the federal government already to risk losing it. However, I will answer your question honestly....if it ever came to an armed conflict, then either they will die, or I will die, but rest assured, I will never live under a Socialist/Communist regime.


I have long believed that you cannot have a system that is based absolutely of socialism or capitalism ,unfortunately due to the way society is constructed in the 21st century You have to have capitalism in order to make the bulk of the wealth that the rest of the state then relies on ,in order to fund innovation and development and in order to make a successful rich and powerful ruling class. In the U.S. we do not live under a pure Capitalist system. We already have Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Unemployment Insurance, Social Welfare programs, Food Stamps, thousands of government regulations, government sponsored social grants, hundreds of government issued "loans", that are never paid back. Under our current President, we have corporate bail outs, banking bail outs, government sponsored programs that will give you money to buy a new car, if you buy the one the government approves of. I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point. As far as I'm concerned, we're already too far to the left.

However you need to tax this wealth generating public sector in order to provide education , essential services and socialist measures such as the welfare state to provide for those who cant provide for themselves the most vulnerable people in society. Perhaps you're not aware of the fact that the wealthy already pay a totally disproportionate amount of taxes. They are already paying a "penalty", for their success. Approximately 51% of the people in this country pay no taxes at all....none! Our President is constantly promoting class warfare with the phrase, "the rich should pay their fair share, to pay down the debt". Give me a freakin' break. Do you know that if every single wealthy person, ($250,000 a yr. income and up, according to Obama), were to be taxed at 100%, it wouldn't even make a dent in the 16 trillion dollar debt these people have run up. Think about that! A 100% tax that would literally take away all the wealth, of all of this country's wealthiest people, wouldn't pay down more than 5% of our debt. OurSure some people take advantage of the welfare state provisions but there are lots of people out there who cant work not because they dont want to or because there isnt a job but because they are disabled for example , The state has to provide for those people ,the state also has to provide for people at times when the private sector cannot provide them with jobs otherwise as I previously mentioned they turn to crime because they have no alternative . I have no issue with helping those in need, and I never have. My issue is the fact that there are not "some" people taking advantage of the welfare system as you say. There is an incredibly large percentage taking advantage. Government assassistance, is supposed to be just that, "assistance". We have many thousands of people that are now 3rd generation welfare recipients. Did you know that? Think about yourself on welfare, your children going on welfare, then their children on welfare. Hundreds of billions in fraud every year, and still the Liberals are always calling for more social welfare programs. I praised Bill Clinton, and voted for him because he made a tremendous contribution to welfare reform. Most of which Obama, has already undone.

If you let the free market reign supreme you would have much much deeper class divisions than you currently have amongst other things , it might even be reasonable to suggest a completely unregulated free market would result in slavery of some form is that something that you would want to see ?

I do believe you are taking Margaret Thatcher slightly out of context with that quote, No I'm not, here's her actual quote..." The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money – Margaret Thatcher,
Prime Minister of Great Britian
it was accurate then, and it's just as accurate now. and lets face it she wasn't the most popular prime minister this country has ever had . It would be more accurate to say that she wasn't very popular with that segment of British society that wanted handouts. During her reign she did not completely abolish welfare state provisions and in fact spending on things such as the NHS increased in real terms during her time in office ,some say perhaps that was for limitations imposed on her by the constitutional structure of the UK but who knows , one thing is for sure her policies where influenced by monetarist thinking , and her response to the recession in the early 80's was informed by her economic beliefs , how surprising that a few years later unemployment peaked at 12.5% of the workforce , Now despite having inflation "under control" you have a massive number of unemployed who you have to provide for at considerable cost

I think one of the most shocking things for me that i am seeing as a result of this recession is the masses of unemployed young people who could possibly end up being a generation on the scrapheap unable to get anywhere in their lives because they have started of in their adult life without a job , how are they to have any aspirations of job experience both of which are required to progress and climb the career ladder

Answer this , what do you propose is done to provide for those who are unable to provide for themselves in your completely capitalist view of how things should be ? I don't have a "completely Capitalist view". I believe in Social Security, I believe in a form of collective government assistance to those who are truly in need. I believe in a better path to American citizenship than our present system now provides. You'd probably be amazed at just how much government social support in which I do believe.

However, we need a strict enforcment of our current laws to put an end to Medicare fraud, Welfare fraud, Food Stamp fraud, thousands of government entitlement programs. Our thinking needs to be restructured so that people once again take responsibility for their own actions. You buy a house that's worth $150,000, and you pay $325,000, with a 2% interest only mortgage with an escalation clause to 15%, you own it! Don't expect the government to step in and pay for your stupidity.

What do people like me get for living within their means? What do folks like me get for taking a 30 year fixed conventional mortgage, and making every payment on time for 30 years? What do people get who make well thought out, reasonable decisions in their lives? How are people compensated by the government for playing by the rules all their lives?

I'll tell you what they get...they get nothing, nada, not a thing....oh yes, wait, they do get something, they get to pay for every one else who didn't.

There's really no point in continuing this. A Liberal is a Liberal, and a Conservative is a Conservative, and neither will change the other's mind. But, it's been a nice civil chat.
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Old 10-28-2012, 07:26 PM   #15
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Margarat thatcher was not just unpopular with people that wanted handouts ,your analysis of British political history is shockingly inaccurate . perhaps if you actually paid any attention to British history you would recall that some of those that formed her strongest opposition where in fact unionised members of the working class that didn't want their livelihood taken away from them , I would not describe those people as you did "It would be more accurate to say that she wasn't very popular with that segment of British society that wanted handouts" and to do so would be completely disrespectful as well as historically inaccurate . My parents and my Grandparents and my great grandparents when they where alive where still in the 21st century opponents of Thatcherism and yet never took a single hand out . Reading about it now I am an opponent of Thatcherism and right now straight out of university I have 2 jobs just so that I can pay of the debt that I accumulated at uni . I have no intention of ever taking a handout from the state in my life .I dont think it is fair or respectful to label everyone who was or is an opponent of Margaret Thatcher a scrounger .

The exact problem you have described which is increasing numbers of people fraudulenty taking state welfare is a problem I agree exists and agree completely that the law should be applied to these people , this however is not a problem that socialism has caused or has anything to do with socialist beliefs , if anything it is capitalism which perpetuates this kind of greedy consumerist society that we have became where every person is out for themselves , but laying that to the side for one minute , I dont see what you disagree with then ,if you dont disagree with welfare provisions as you have said , And I agree that people who fraudulantly take welfare hand outs are indeed incorrect and the law should be applied consistantly and strongly to prevent that we are in agreement

The rich paying "a disproportionate" amount of tax is just progressive taxation , sucks if you dont agree with it or like it because I dont think progressive taxation will be going anywhere in our lifetime .

The only thing I can see you disagree with is the currently high number of unemployed people who have to take assistance from the state because there are no jobs for them . Surely your capitalist free market should be providing the work for people ? or didthe last 5 years not happen to you ,remember the bit where your conservative rich capitalist friends in the city brought the economy crashing down on the rest of the good hard working people in your country leaving many without a home or work for years to come .

BTW I wouldn't classify myself as a liberal , I am liberal on some issues however when it comes to crime and punishment for example I can become a lot more conservative ,again international affairs I am more clasically conservative in my beliefs , anyone who makes their mind up about every issue subscribing to just one philosophical school is probably an idiot in my mind . but hey that's what you get if you listen to politicians without really analyzing what they are saying .
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Old 10-28-2012, 08:08 PM   #16
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@muz.... here is what I believe you are just not comprehending.

It isn't what you are saying. It is the tone in which you say it.

"what are you going to do when those who have nothing turn to crime and revolution"


"what do you propose is done to provide for those who are unable to provide for themselves in your completely capitalist view of how things should be?"

"it might even be reasonable to suggest a completely unregulated free market would result in slavery of some form is that something that you would want to see?"

"it is capitalism which perpetuates this kind of greedy consumerist society that we have became where every person is out for themselves"

"anyone who makes their mind up about every issue subscribing to just one philosophical school is probably an idiot in my mind"

You did get one thing correct. There is actually not a great deal that separates our political philosophies. However, the buzz words you use to make your argument, are assumptive, as well as very telling. After seeing words like "revolution", "free markets unregulated resulting in slavery", "your completely capitalistic view", etc.

I read those comments, and I thought to myself, this is probably a very young man/woman, about college age. And then,....I remembered someone who said...."If you attain the age of 25, and are not a Liberal, you have no heart. If you reach 40, and are not conservative, you have no brain." I cannot remember who said that but the concept is most understandable.

You assumed that I had an inflexible Capitalistic view of society. A person unwilling to help his fellow man. You put me in a box, and then saw my response, and the box was the wrong size.

Hey, I did the same thing when I was your age. I didn't believe it then, as you won't believe it now. I'll leave you with this..... I'd very much like the opportunity to have this conversation with you when you are about 50 or 60 years of age.

After a lifetime of working hard for everything you have, and others just working the system to get by who demand what you have because as human beings, they are somehow entitled to a piece of your pie, I'll bet you'll see things just a little differently.

Until then, I will say it's been a pleasure. It's rare on forums such as these that one can have a civil debate, without the thread being closed, because one person, or both got completely out of hand.
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Old 10-28-2012, 08:36 PM   #17
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Default Re: The "Non-Political" Political Thread

Well, this is a pleasant surprise. A civil discussion about politics. Bravo to muz and Hameister. And muz, it is truly enjoyable to encounter a recent college graduate with a discerning mind that examines the issue from both sides.
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Old 10-28-2012, 09:00 PM   #18
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It has been good having semi informed debate for a change without getting flamed for what is essentially a political preference which one could not possibly change via the internet,especially seeing as we life in 2 completely different countries with different values and political systems .
however fyi your knowledge of British political history is still shocking I would suggest in future if you purport to know anything about Thatcher et al you do some further reading .
I did assume that you where completely inflexible in your capitalist view perhaps my view was informed by your response seen in post 12 where you where essentially saying that you can pick A and fight it out with B that suggested to me that instead of accepting ideas from both philosophies one can accept just one and fight it out with the other , you have since indicated that this is not in fact your belief thus contradicting yourself a little bit perhaps ?


and you too are being assumptive in suggesting what I would say and believe at 50 or 60 years of age ,


The way I see things is perfectly put in this quote "Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life"
Perhaps if i succeed this way I will be less bitter about my years of "work"

Either way clearly not everyone grows up after years of work to be bitter about socialist and liberal ideals and turns into a conservative like your little anecdotal quote would suggest otherwise you wouldn't have such closely contested elections particularly in the UK because we have an aging population which would clearly translate into a conservative landslide at the polls but it doesn't and hasn't . what you in fact find is that certain parties are affiliated with certain socio-economic groups

I can see and am seduced by some of the conservative economic arguments , I however am well educated and can read two arguments and make an informed decision about which one I favor , Perhaps as you hypothesize years working and seeing money taken from me labelled as tax in order to support lazy people will make me bitter and conservative or perhaps even after years of having tax money taken from me I will still be of the informed view that there are and always will be people who need the support of the state and as one of the more fortunate who has had a chance to get some of the best education my county has offered I need to contribute financially to the lives of those who haven't had the opportunity I have had in my life . perhaps even in years I will still believe that inequality is wrong in the face of those of the traditional conservative schools who purport that inequality is just natural . However I dont think your hypothesis has any factual basis apart form an anecdotal example from your life and so It is to be taken with a pinch of salt perhaps . If you are of the older generation which your posts would suggest yo
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Old 10-28-2012, 09:18 PM   #19
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Default Re: The "Non-Political" Political Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by OS-Wiz View Post
Well, this is a pleasant surprise. A civil discussion about politics. Bravo to muz and Hameister. And muz, it is truly enjoyable to encounter a recent college graduate with a discerning mind that examines the issue from both sides.
It is rare to get civill political discussion in settings like this however .Informed civil debate is not that hard after spending 3 years at university you get every opportunity to have civil debate with other strong advocates and so you have to be on your toes . You just have to read both sides decide which one sits more comfortably with you , some arguments are more convincing for some people than others usually based on life experience as I have just been demonstrating however sometimes one can play devils advocate and for instance I did this in exams , I would argue a point I didnt particularly agree with because there was more argument or easier to state argument to support that side , Maybe I have just done that here who knows :P.

Mpving this thread on , In case anyone already hasnt realised im not in america so wont get a vote however I do have views on most of the main issues separating the candidates
One issues which for me is kind of suprising its even an issue that needs to be discussed considering we are in the 21st century is , Over in the Uk it is not as big an issue Gay people can be "married" , it has been suggested to me and I have gathered through my reading that religious morality still influences politics in America, you probably already know the whole supreme court and religious morality thing raised in Roe v Wade as an example , Over here in the UK the role of religion in politics is wholly symbolic in my viewy . And indeed the opposition to Gay marriage is founded on religious morals . So what does everyone things of it should Gay people be allowed to be married and should Gay couples have all the same rights as heterosexual couples .

In my view there is no valid reason gay marriage should not be allowed , I wouldn't go as far as to force every church to carry out gay marriages I would leave that decision up to individual congregations etc however I would say that Gay people can be married and should have all the same rights afforded to straight couples such as the right to adopt and married tax breaks etc etc

Whats everyone elses view on gay rights ?
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Old 10-28-2012, 09:22 PM   #20
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Default Re: The "Non-Political" Political Thread

Wow, how was I able to predict your response? Amazing! I must be psychic....no, just lived a lot longer, that's all.

I said in my final comments...."Hey, I did the same thing when I was your age. I didn't believe it then, as you won't believe it now."

Your final words, still ringing with the idealism of youth, still combative, only serve to suggest my thoughts are accurate.

That's ok, I've been there, and I've done that. You have yet to experience what I have experienced.

However, you have a better start than I did. When I was your age, I was what is called a "Progressive" today. I was very idealistic, believed that everyone was equal, everyone should own everything, with no individual owning anything.

Capitalism was a very bad thing, and Socialism was a very good thing. In college I believed that Socialism was the key to ending poverty, world hunger, and wars.

You young muz, are already making statements such as..."I have 2 jobs just so that I can pay off the debt that I accumulated at uni . I have no intention of ever taking a handout from the state in my life".

See, you are already showing core signs of self reliance, and responsibility. I didn't come to accept that until I was in my early 30s. See what a jump you already have on me?

Yessir! You'll end up a first class Conservative in about 25 years, and you won't even know how you got there.....but I will.

Have a good evening.
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