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Old 11-06-2017, 12:08 AM   #1
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Default Mass shooting too close to home

Texas is a gun friendly state then a nut come along and screw it all up.

https://www.ksat.com/news/shooting-s...ooting-airlife

Sutherland Springs is 21 miles SW of San Antonio Courthouse. Probably less from where I live.

I'm against gun bans but I'll go along with banning assault rifles. I used to have an AR15 and I thought that it's a great self defense weapon because of high capacity and rapid fire. Then I thought it also can wreck havoc on people. I decided to get rid of it.

I'm keeping my 10mm pistol and my 12 gauge pump.
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Old 11-06-2017, 04:49 AM   #2
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Default Re: Mass shooting too close to home

You seem to have an awful lot of nutters over there. Mind having said that we have our fair share this side of the pond it's just you lot have more people.
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Old 11-06-2017, 08:22 AM   #3
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Default Re: Mass shooting too close to home

A lot more people that are stupid asses. Living like animals.
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Old 11-06-2017, 08:27 AM   #4
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Default Re: Mass shooting too close to home

I also think that you are going to get gun control sooner or later and probably sooner rather than later. I don't know whether or not that will prevent mass shootings, probably not, but it's going to come. What that might provoke the extremists in the "no gun control lobby" into doing is anybodies guess.
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Old 11-06-2017, 08:41 AM   #5
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Default Re: Mass shooting too close to home

Some say that the problem are people not the weapons and I agree but the availability of said weapons on the streets are the real problem.

Texas allow weapon sales face to face without paperwork. The only criteria is that the buyer is of age and has a valid Texas Driver's License. A lot of FTF sales are done without the IDs.

When I sold my guns FTF I required a valid gun permit to do the deal. Those who has it appreciated me and those who don't are pissed.

Too bad. My guns my rules.
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Old 11-06-2017, 06:28 PM   #6
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Default Re: Mass shooting too close to home

I don't really know what to think about it to be honest.

I agree with the argument that guns are tools. (and if these people didn't have guns they'd just use knives, or explosives, or petrol, or a hire van.)

The responsibility for how a tool use used is entirely with the individual.



but I also recognize that a car is a tool also,
and we mandate that you must be of good health, have all your faculties, undergo training and take a test before you can have a car.

in the modern world having a car is a lot more basic than having a gun, yet it seems a lot more restricted.
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Old 11-06-2017, 09:34 PM   #7
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Default Re: Mass shooting too close to home

If guns were outlawed then only outlaws would have guns.

Criminals do not obey existing gun control laws so adding more won't make a difference to the criminal element but instead will only hinder those who already abide by the laws.
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Old 11-07-2017, 02:40 AM   #8
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Default Re: Mass shooting too close to home

Glad it didn't reach you, Cel.

I also send my prayers and thoughts to the victims and their families. They didn't deserve to be assaulted while performing their duties, which happened to be religious by chance. You have no idea how sad this made me

If murder is the worst crime ever, how bad does that make it if done under such settings?

As for guns, I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment about it because here we don't have such a problem (it's banned here with some extremely strict exceptions).

I did see a controversial point in the link, tho. It was about if it is bad that the killer had guns (including pistols) or good that the rescuer who confronted him had one, a point raised in relation to gun control, and if it affects the opinion of allowing or banning guns.

Not sure about the killer's part of the above equation, but I'm at least sure it was a good thing the rescuer was there to confront him. If it wasn't for him, death count could have been much more. I'm glad he was there for that.
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Old 11-07-2017, 04:43 AM   #9
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Default Re: Mass shooting too close to home

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrotterTech View Post
If guns were outlawed then only outlaws would have guns.

Criminals do not obey existing gun control laws so adding more won't make a difference to the criminal element but instead will only hinder those who already abide by the laws.
That's true,
And it is a point that is already highlighted in the article first linked.
Quote:
Officials said he did not have a license to carry guns.
that's actually a hyper-link to this article: https://www.ksat.com/news/texas-chur...air-force-says

He was a criminal, there was an element of gun control in place (he could not legally own one.) but he still had guns. - the point is not that gun control doesn't work, but that poor gun control, badly enforced does not work.


As I said before cars, a few people may drive illegally, or in a criminal way but we actively try to find those people.
and it's probably not just because the police get the money from tickets, it's because if we just let people speed, because a few would anyway. if we just let people go with car with no brake lights, if we just let people go who don't have road worthy cars, then a lot more people would die in traffic accidents as a result...

It is a similar situation with guns, by not policing effectively "we" (well "you" as I'm not in the US) allow these gun deaths to occur.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Smart_Guy View Post
I did see a controversial point in the link, tho. It was about if it is bad that the killer had guns (including pistols) or good that the rescuer who confronted him had one, a point raised in relation to gun control, and if it affects the opinion of allowing or banning guns.

Not sure about the killer's part of the above equation, but I'm at least sure it was a good thing the rescuer was there to confront him. If it wasn't for him, death count could have been much more. I'm glad he was there for that.
This is something that is often said, the only thing that can protect you from a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

but really it is not all that simple or true. (at least not universally true, - there are plenty of cases where people are accidentally killed by the good guy with the gun.)

*most* people, (including people who spend loads of time on the range) are just not conditioned to be able to think properly under fire. - that's why they don't just hand you a gun and send you on your way to war if you join the police or military. they train you. extensively, live fire exercises.
those forces that train for situations like this, (I.e how to deal with terrorist situations, mass shootings etc) are trained whilst being shot at.

The reality of the situation of the good guy having a gun in a mass shooting is a bit more bleak than take out the shooter save the hostages, "mission complete";
The good guy will be basically shooting into the crowd, and is more likely to hit someone else than the actual shooter.
The good guy will be a guy holding a gun at a mass shooting, and is more likely to be shot by police thinking that he is the shooter.

In this case the shooter was ex-military, so there is a real good reason to believe that he would have simply been a better shot, and coped with the stress of being under fire better than random passer by with a gun.


In this situation the good guy apparently managed to wound the shooter, but the shooter still drove away and took his own life later.

Basically, this doesn't really tell you either way, the best case scenario here is, good guy saves crowd by wounding shooter causing him to flee.

the worst case is, man endangers crown by firing into/through crowd with lethal weapon managing to mildly hurt other man.


the good guy with a gun, did of course do a good thing, I'm not taking that away from him, just pointing out that it's not as simple as turn up and hero the sit
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Old 11-07-2017, 04:46 AM   #10
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Glad it didn't reach you, Cel.

I also send my prayers and thoughts to the victims and their families. They didn't deserve to be assaulted while performing their duties, which happened to be religious by chance. You have no idea how sad this made me

If murder is the worst crime ever, how bad does that make it if done under such settings?

As for guns, I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment about it because here we don't have such a problem (it's banned here with some extremely strict exceptions).

I did see a controversial point in the link, tho. It was about if it is bad that the killer had guns (including pistols) or good that the rescuer who confronted him had one, a point raised in relation to gun control, and if it affects the opinion of allowing or banning guns.

Not sure about the killer's part of the above equation, but I'm at least sure it was a good thing the rescuer was there to confront him. If it wasn't for him, death count could have been much more. I'm glad he was there for that.
And there you have it folks in an absolute nutshell.
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Old 11-07-2017, 07:19 AM   #11
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Default Re: Mass shooting too close to home

Gun control is virtually impossible because this country based its freedom on guns. We have a constitutional right to do so. The problem is people lacking morals and untreated mental illness.

Also the laws that we have are not enforced because someone's not doing his friggin job. That's the problem. Again the problem is people.

This shooter has no right to possess any firearm because he had a history of domestic violence yet again someone's not doing his job keeping him from getting guns or locked up.

Imagine this scenario: In the old Western days you walk in a saloon intending to shoot up people. Guess what? You'll be full of holes before you empty your six shooter.

To Congress:

I'm afraid that you'll never take away our guns so don't restrict us good citizens from carrying our guns everywhere we go and uphold the laws ourselves because you sure ain't doing it but make more BS laws.
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Old 11-07-2017, 07:33 AM   #12
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And there you have it folks in an absolute nutshell.
You obviously do not understand the US or how we view our freedoms. Trying to ban or confiscate guns here would only disarm those who abide by the law(s) already. It blows my mind that people cannot understand that.
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Old 11-07-2017, 08:45 AM   #13
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You obviously do not understand the US or how we view our freedoms. Trying to ban or confiscate guns here would only disarm those who abide by the law(s) already. It blows my mind that people cannot understand that.
You speak as though you are speaking for ALL Americans which is simply not true. Yes, a certain percentage think the way you do but, thankfully, not all.

Frankly, the 2nd Amendment "right to bear arms" doctrine is an antiquated view of things and no longer meaningful.

I'm not against gun ownership for sporting purposes but don't know how to allow that purpose while keeping guns out of the hands of those who shouldn't have them or would use them for non-legal purposes.
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Old 11-07-2017, 12:47 PM   #14
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You obviously do not understand the US or how we view our freedoms. Trying to ban or confiscate guns here would only disarm those who abide by the law(s) already. It blows my mind that people cannot understand that.
Well I do understand the USA and how you view your freedoms. What I don't understand is the way people like you think.

I do know that there is no point in arguing about it because, one way or the other, what will happen will happen. We will see, eventually, who is right and who is wrong.
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Old 11-07-2017, 01:09 PM   #15
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Default Re: Mass shooting too close to home

If you take away the guns, only Criminals will have any guns other than police. It takes sometimes 10-15 minites to get from wherever they are to you, IF you get to call 911. If not YOU could be dead before they (police) get there. Now, i have guns. If they try and break in to my home THEY are dead. Call 911 after. Good guys 1, bad guys 0 !!!
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Old 11-07-2017, 02:17 PM   #16
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Default Re: Mass shooting too close to home

Damn straight Dan.

Here in the USA there's a barrel behind a blade of grass. We just have to take our lumps but something can be done about it like posting guards during public gatherings.

If laws ain't gonna do it then guard presence will.
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Old 11-08-2017, 05:35 AM   #17
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Gun control is virtually impossible because this country based its freedom on guns. We have a constitutional right to do so. The problem is people lacking morals and untreated mental illness.
To some extent I agree, everybody "should" be able to have a gun, and everybody should be able to be trusted to have a gun. But that is not the case.

Once upon a time people were property you had a right to own slaves. then the law was changed and you didn't.
Now it is only the criminals that own slaves.

Once upon a time a husband could not (in the sense of the law) rape his wife. Now it is only criminals who rape their wives.

Sometimes those laws being made that restrict previous freedoms are necessary/right, yet still unpopular.

essentially given that we know that some people should not be able to own guns, (and that is currently the law in the US. why is there such objection to changing the premise from everyone should be able to have a gun, except those people.
to everybody should apply to own a gun, and be allowed to own a gun, except those people that arguable should not. (basically the same people who could previously own guns before could now, and the people who cannot now could not now -the only difference is the oversight.

Quote:
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You obviously do not understand the US or how we view our freedoms. Trying to ban or confiscate guns here would only disarm those who abide by the law(s) already. It blows my mind that people cannot understand that.
That is the same everywhere in the world! (if you cannot legally own a gun only the criminals own guns.) yet gun crime is not a significant problem elsewhere.

Besides which, I don't think that anybody has suggested taking guns in entirety, just having better, (and enforced) control. (the idea that the government are coming to take away your personal property is a myth pedaled by people who want unregulated gun ownership.)

As Celery pointed out, the guy should not have owned guns in the first place, someone failed in their job to control guns properly. - I assume that you agree with the principal that criminals and unstable people should not be able to own guns, (else things like this happen.)
I think a part of the problem is that the system is too porous, by which i mean, if you melted all the guns in the US today, more would filter in through land borders with Mexico and Canada tomorrow.
Also, even if you managed to control the flow of guns into the country effectively, there are still sale issues, (as pointed out,) face to face sales are permitted, and pretty difficult to regulate effectively.

A huge part of the problem is that really, nobody knows how many guns are in the country, or who owns them, or who can access those.

-and yes it would take a hugely restrictive law, like a total ban to get a handle on that in a single year, but why would you aim to do it in such a short time frame?


I don't think that the UK has "the best" gun laws in the world.
but, I offer this as a suggestion on gun control.

After a mass shooting (in a school) (I guess a bit over 20 years ago.) where a "pillar of the community" type guy, (really involved, scout master, active in local church type guy.) systematically murders a load of kids, hand guns are essentially banned.

the only people who have handguns now are:
the police,
the military
sporting clubs that are licensed to have them.
criminals.


We have two categories of gun that "anyone" can own, Shotguns, and "firearms".

Shotguns are simple double barrel, break barrel type. we can't have either automatic, or pump-action type shutguns.

the ownership of these is a fairly simple affair.
you apply for a license at your local police
your gun store is inspected by the local police
your application must be supported by a person of "good standing" (i.e a doctor, police officer, solicitor etc.)
you get your license, you buy your shot gun, register the serial numbers etc. and you keep it.
every five years you renew your license.
if for some reason you don't re-new your license, you may still own the gun, but you cannot keep the gun at home, - that means you need to store it at a local gun shop, (where most reasonable size town will have a gunsmith/gun shop. or club.) - I'd be surprised if everyone didn't live within 20 miles of one.

You can go and get your guns and take them hunting... there are a few eccentricities about how you can take them places. (for the purpose of the law your car is a "public place" so you can't throw them into your car and go to a bar. but you can throw them in your car, go hunting, put them back in your car, take them home, unload the guns, then go to a bar...

Firearms, is a bit of a strange classification in UK law, it covers everything from high powered air riffles, (where classification is based on the pressure used to launch the projectile.) to hunting riffles, it used to include handguns, (but now doesn't as they are entirely banned.) I think it includes black powder rifles/muskets, and cannons etc.
(but black powder may be governed by a pyrotechnics licenses.)

We don't have automatic, nor semi automatic firearms in public hands, only the police/military/criminals get those.

the process to get a firearm is more stringent, and takes a little longer. but there is no reason that you would be denied one unless you have a history of criminality or mental problems. (i've a friend who has just been granted his.)
Again, you need to register serials, must have secure storage, that secure storage must be inspected by the police on a regular (five year) basis.

(secure storage is just an all metal gun safe that is double locked and secured to an exterior (brick) wall.)


Quote:
I'm afraid that you'll never take away our guns so don't restrict us good citizens from carrying our guns everywhere we go and uphold the laws ourselves because you sure ain't doing it but make more BS laws.
you already are stopped from carrying guns everywhere you go as there are "gun free zones"

Another peculiarity of the UK is that we don't have gun free zones. I suppose this is due to an expectation that most people just don't have guns.

(so in that small aspect we have more gun freedom than the US!)

my view may be skewed by country living, but I would not find it either alarming or unusual to hear gunshots during the day.
I would not find it alarming or unusual to see a guy stood on the edge of town with a gun, not in a case just being carried.
I would not find it either alarming or unusual to see a person carrying guns in a soft gun case through town. (if they were walking.) possibly going into shops or supermarkets with their guns.

There is no such thing as a carry permit. (either open or concealed)

you either have a gun, (and what's the point in having it if you can't take it places.) or you don't have a gun.


Quote:
Imagine this scenario: In the old Western days you walk in a saloon intending to shoot up people. Guess what? You'll be full of holes before you empty your six shooter.
There is a you tube video about that. where a guy walks into an office with a musket and shoots one person, then stops and spend a couple of minutes reloading whilst everyone runs away.

Also, i'm not really sure that history was actually like spaghetti western films where everyone was murdered and whoever was left in the bar just went back to their drinking.
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Old 11-08-2017, 09:40 AM   #18
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Not too many people advocate for taking guns away from everyone. Most people seem to be in favor of simple common sense regulations. Like, if you're a felon, you shouldn't be allowed to buy a gun, whether it's from walmart or your neighbor. The problem is with the implementation and accountability.

If there were an inexpensive and easy way for Joe Citizen to run a background check on someone before they sold a gun to someone, most people would happily run the check. Like, if there were a website, that runs background checks for like 5 bucks, how great would that be? Responsible gun owners responsibly selling to other responsible people. If you don't want to run a background check, fine, but then you'd be held just as accountable if that buyer used the gun for a crime.

Heck, while were at it, why not put a mandatory minimum sentence on any crime where a gun was used. Rob a liquor store of $12 with a gun, 20 years minimum. Break into a house with a gun in your possession, 20 years minimum. Surely harsher penalties would deter people from using firearms in the commission of a crime.


I know the canadians require people wanting to buy guns to take a class and pass a test. Making sure people know how to use a gun before they are allowed to purchase one; that sounds reasonable, right? Plus a 3-4 hour course on a sunday at least gives the trainers a chance to find out if someone is a nutjob.

Also, i don't see any reason would need to buy and receive a gun right away. Is there any reason most people couldn't wait 2-3 days to get their gun after purchasing it? Sure, there could be some extenuating circumstances, like death threats etc. but those aren't common, and could be dealt with on a case by case basis.

And before someone says that the second amendment GUARANTEES the right to own guns, you're not completely correct. I'm not saying you're wholly wrong either, just that there are limits to ALL the rights enshrined in the constitution. For instance, you can't lie to a judge, or scream fire in a theater, or defraud people and claim it's free speech protected by the first amendment. There are limits to the rights we have.
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Old 11-08-2017, 11:12 AM   #19
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Usually, giving harsher punishments would deter crimes but it doesn't. Why? They get paroled after a few years.

Quit the parole crap and the system will work in two ways.

One, if you get 20 years you get 20 years, no ifs ands or buts.

Two, you're off the street for 20 years.

Also quit giving them TVs, internet access and snacks. Prison is supposed to suck so make it suck.

The criminals will think twice about it. We are making it too easy for them and us taxpayers are paying for it. We shouldn't be paying for their comfort, we should give them hard times.

Your lives means nothing to them so why should we care? Piss on them, throw them in a hole and bury em.
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Old 11-08-2017, 11:40 AM   #20
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....
One, if you get 20 years you get 20 years, no ifs ands or buts. ...
This sounds good in theory but the reality is that we would go broke very quickly trying to build and staff enough prisons. The major reason convicted people get paroled or otherwise released early is more about economics than whether they deserve it. It's sad but true.
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