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Old 09-20-2010, 04:30 PM   #21
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Default Re: Life on Europa -- Need Religious "Experts"

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likewise, if there were intelligent life on another planet, there is a good chance that their religious scriptures would not mention us.
Can you assume that intelligent life in other planets would create a similar belief in what humans call religion?

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Science and religion don't mix because they are two different mind sets. and science cannot think like religion.
If science can be used to back religion why can't science be used to "disprove" it?

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we don't need to change the text of the bible to accept that there may be other life on other planets, but we do need to throw away a lot of scientific papers that say that life can't exist.
equally if life doesn't exist on other planets we'll need to throw away all the papers that say it can. (if we find out it's impossible to sustain life on other planets). but the bible and all other religious text (proper religions not cults) can remain unchanged.
This is assuming they make no reference to other forms of life, correct?

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Science will tell you that the universe was created with a big bang...
The big bang is one of the theories. Stephen Hawking just wrote a new book where spontaneous creation of universes is completely backed by physics. Considering I haven't read it, I can't say whether I believe he is correct or not, nor do I have the stature to do so.

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only an idiot scientists will tell you that there is no God.
(I say only an idiot scientist, because science is about having a theory and proving that theory, and showing how you prove that theory, in a sustainable repeatable way, only then can it be a scientific fact...).
Stephen Hawking's new book essentially disproves the existence of a good. Again, haven't read, can't confirm.

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there is no proof that God didn't create the universe, indeed even if science could irrefutably prove that the universe was created in a big bang type scenario, they still won't ever know what created the big bang, and still can't prove that that's just not how god created the universe.
How did God come to be?

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it's only when some scientist comes along and tries to take a 2000 year old book that's been translated from different languages influenced politically over the translations, prone to human error in the translation and written over the course of hundreds of years anyway and tries to treat it like some kind of research paper that there are problems...
What if all these scientific speculations came before any religious texts. Would your stance still be the same?

Since you felt free to state your opinions, I'll say one thing regarding my opinions. What factual evidence is there to prove religion, something that is utterly ambiguous, compared to science? How can you take a religious text and say that it is better than science when both are human made?
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Old 09-20-2010, 10:05 PM   #22
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Default Re: Life on Europa -- Need Religious "Experts"

Joga, that was extremely well said. The Bible is nothing but a book of theories. From what I understand, the superior being who created the universe was omnipotent. Basic science proves that matter cannot be created or destroyed. I know this goes against the big bang theory, but it can help balance the scales out with religion. Where did this superior being come from? He couldn't have just created himself. Science and religion go hand to hand. All they have are stories but can't fully explain everything. I tend to rely on science more because when they do find answers they usually have some sort of physical evidence I can see, hear, feel, etc. Not just, "this is how it happened. if you don't believe in it, you're going to hell."
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Old 09-21-2010, 04:29 AM   #23
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Default Re: Life on Europa -- Need Religious "Experts"

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Can you assume that intelligent life in other planets would create a similar belief in what humans call religion?
yes, I can assume that...

evidence from this world would seem to support that, there are hundreds of religions, each from different areas of the earth, when an intelligent being cannot explain something it seems, human nature at least to come up with a best fit theory.

Religious stories (at the time they were created) were the best fit theories.

it is reasonable to assume that a part of intelligence is inquisitiveness and imagination.

and a key part of religion is inquisitiveness imagination and a lot of unexplained things.


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If science can be used to back religion why can't science be used to "disprove" it?
Science CAN be used to back religion, science CAN be used to disprove it.
just like how science has proved the Turin shroud to be a fake
just how science proves time and time again that buried wood found in Turkey is not the arc.

You failed exactly where I said you'd fail, because you have a scientific mind, not a religious one.

Science deals in facts and theories, (provable or evidence backed theories).

when a religious person says that God created the universe that's a believe system. but it does not ignore other possibilities.

when a scientist says that the universe was created by a big bang, they say that the other theory is wrong.

and that's the problem, nowhere in the bible does it say that the universe was not created in a big bang, nor does it deny that a massive explosion might have been the way in which a God (any God) would go about creating life.


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This is assuming they make no reference to other forms of life, correct?
it was in direct response to finding life on other planets, reference to life is inferred.

Science paper a says it's impossible for life to exist outside earth
science paper b says, of course there is life outside earth (think of the mathematical probability that we are the only form of life in the universe).

bible, says nothing...

The point is, if we prove A, b is wrong, prove B then A is wrong. the only one that can remain the same and unchanged is the bible.

because it says nothing. or whatever it does say is so vague that it's open to a million interpretations.


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The big bang is one of the theories. Stephen Hawking just wrote a new book where spontaneous creation of universes is completely backed by physics. Considering I haven't read it, I can't say whether I believe he is correct or not, nor do I have the stature to do so.
All I'll say is this, the bing bang theory has been disproved.
the physics does not support an explosion like we know now.

so then they figured out a theory about the first expansion, (I think it's called expansion theory). which was sort of tagged onto the big bang theory, that accounts for the at first slow rate of explosion in the big bang,

then that didn't work, so a few more things were tagged in.

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Stephen Hawking's new book essentially disproves the existence of a good. Again, haven't read, can't confirm.
no, it doesn't
it makes mathematical calculations that show how the universe was created.

it does not say anything about the existence of God.

because there is no way to actually disprove a god.

you can tell me that the universe was created by a super concentration of energy all massed into one place.

a priest can say OK, well God put that energy there.

if you don't understand that then you're really missing the point...

nowhere in the bible does it say that go created a field then he put a little hedge row around it, then an old oak tree in the middle, didn't like the original colour so changed it to green, dug a tiny hole and popped a field mouse into it, it just says, god pretty much created everything.

The order that things were created roughly agrees with science...


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How did God come to be?
I can't tell you that, nor can anyone else.

just the same as a scientist can't tell you what created the energy or the circumstances to cause the big bang.

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What if all these scientific speculations came before any religious texts. Would your stance still be the same?
you don't understand, based with no better idea, religion WAS the scientific explanation.


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Since you felt free to state your opinions, I'll say one thing regarding my opinions. What factual evidence is there to prove religion, something that is utterly ambiguous, compared to science? How can you take a religious text and say that it is better than science when both are human made?
I never said better, nor more accurate. I think my words were fantastically woolley. there isn't a hard and fast fact in the bible. which is why it stand for so long unchanged, there's not a lot that could be changed.

Like I said.

if you say the big bang created the universe, all a religious person need do is tell you that's the way that God creates universes...

kind of like when you make a cake, you don't build it crumb by crumb adding in each little bubble of air and spraying in moisture, you throw all the ingredients together and lob it in the oven.
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Old 09-21-2010, 02:30 PM   #24
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Default Re: Life on Europa -- Need Religious "Experts"

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when a religious person says that God created the universe that's a believe system. but it does not ignore other possibilities.

when a scientist says that the universe was created by a big bang, they say that the other theory is wrong.

and that's the problem, nowhere in the bible does it say that the universe was not created in a big bang, nor does it deny that a massive explosion might have been the way in which a God (any God) would go about creating life.
Science does restrict you to a particular theory, however it does not tell you which theory you should believe in. The fact that certain theories contradict each other accounts for this fact. A person can choose to believe in a certain scientific theory much like a person can choose to believe how God went about doing business. Saying that science is one-dimensional is incorrect. The trick with science is that you choose to believe in whichever theory seems to be constructed by the better evidence.

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The point is, if we prove A, b is wrong, prove B then A is wrong. the only one that can remain the same and unchanged is the bible.

because it says nothing. or whatever it does say is so vague that it's open to a million interpretations.
I completely agree with this. However, I find it important to note that with this ambiguity comes a strong sense of unreliability.

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no, it doesn't
it makes mathematical calculations that show how the universe was created.

it does not say anything about the existence of God.

because there is no way to actually disprove a god.

you can tell me that the universe was created by a super concentration of energy all massed into one place.

a priest can say OK, well God put that energy there.

if you don't understand that then you're really missing the point...
The latter part of this statement makes perfect sense to me. In science, when an idea is developed to explain another idea, the developed idea becomes unexplained. However, if the spontaneous creation of universes is backed by physics, then it does disprove the existence of a God to a certain degree. If God created the universe, and now we "know" that the universe does not require God to be created, then this causes significant uncertainties on the necessity of a God in the first place.

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you don't understand, based with no better idea, religion WAS the scientific explanation.
What I'm saying is: Assume the Bible stated that the universe was created via a "Big-Bang". A few centuries later, some physicist comes and points out evidence to the existence of a supernatural being that just snapped his fingers and everything was created. Would you still have the same opinions you have now? My entire point is that your (and everyone else's, including mine) opinion is the way it is because there exists precedence.

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I never said better, nor more accurate. I think my words were fantastically woolley. there isn't a hard and fast fact in the bible. which is why it stand for so long unchanged, there's not a lot that could be changed.
The way you put it, you essentially said that the Bible provides a better explanation because it does not need to be altered to deal with different circumstances (unlike science). All I'm saying is that the nature of this property causes questions of reliability to be asked.

-----

Returning to topic, is the general consensus that lack of reference to life outside Earth implies that the existence of extraterrestrial life is inferred? Does the existence of life in a different planet cause no complications in religions because of its ambiguous nature?
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Old 09-21-2010, 09:16 PM   #25
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As for a short and sweet answer to the OP's question, which by the way you guys have wander off the path again, it won't make one shitting difference to mankind as far as their belief system goes. The search for life out among the stars has been going on for years and mankind as a whole is prepared to deal with the answer.
But on the other hand, man is arrogant, egotistical, narcissistic, and megalomaniacal.
Mankind is foolish to continue to think that WE are the center of the universe. Of course the Bible doesn't mention extra terrestrial life because we didn't know or was told about it. What purpose would it have served to tell men that there is life on other planets? They would have looked at you and thought you had gone out of your mind or was posed by a demon.
If we find life on other worlds, I personally believe it will be very simple life. One celled or maybe simple creatures eeking out a life on a planet who's environment would kill any other carbon based life form. Which brings us to the question, why would life have to be carbon based? Silicon based life forms have been discussed for years also. As well as other forms of life that breath exotic gases. Why would life on other worlds have to adhere to our definition of life?
At most the search on Europa is looking to find simple life forms. At worst the chemical building blocks of life. As we know life...
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Old 09-21-2010, 10:38 PM   #26
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Default Re: Life on Europa -- Need Religious "Experts"

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bible, says nothing...

The point is, if we prove A, b is wrong, prove B then A is wrong. the only one that can remain the same and unchanged is the bible.
Um, that isn't true. How many versions are there of the Bible? How many of them differ from each other? Why was the Bible rewritten? The Bible is nothing but a book of theories. Unlike science, it doesn't have to prove itself. Science is at a huge disadvantage because it has to be proven before it's truly believed. The Bible is supposed to be believed or you will go to Hell. You keep talking about science. How about the stories the Bible tells? About the man living in the belly of the fish?
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:46 AM   #27
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Default Re: Life on Europa -- Need Religious "Experts"

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Which brings us to the question, why would life have to be carbon based? Silicon based life forms have been discussed for years also. As well as other forms of life that breath exotic gases. Why would life on other worlds have to adhere to our definition of life?
I can't discuss the nature of "carbon-based" and "silicon-based" life. I, for one, didn't even know anything other than carbon could for the basis for life. My biology is very poor. As far as I'm concerned, anything that is autonomous is life. I don't restrict life to being intelligent. One of the problems I was having with Root's argument on religion is precisely the fact that there was inherent precedence on his views of life, which is an entirely different discussion. As far as silicon-based life, I would assume that it has to be feasible. After all, carbon and silicon share many properties. However, the slight differences between them could be more than enough to render silicon-based life impossible.

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At most the search on Europa is looking to find simple life forms. At worst the chemical building blocks of life. As we know life...
Just for the sake of argument, why can't life on Europa, assuming there exists, be more than just "simple life forms?" What do you define as simple life form?
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Old 09-22-2010, 02:55 AM   #28
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http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/1...ch-life-europa
http://solarsystem.jpl.nasa.gov/plan...ect=Jup_Europa
http://berkeley.edu/news/media/relea...2_europa.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(moon)

Because the environment is so harsh, more complex life forms would have a tough time surviving. Less complex life forms such as single celled amoebas or sponges for that matter as refered to in one of the articles, would adapt to the environment better and require less fuel to survive. Keep in mind the water is just above freezing and although life forms here on earth have sprung up in freezing water doesn't mean the same is or will happen on other planets. Too many variables in the equation of life. Utilizing our concept of life things have to be just right.
But in all fairness we haven't been there yet. We won't know anything for sure until we do.
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Old 09-22-2010, 11:18 AM   #29
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bible, says nothing...

The point is, if we prove A, b is wrong, prove B then A is wrong. the only one that can remain the same and unchanged is the bible.
Um, that isn't true. How many versions are there of the Bible? How many of them differ from each other? Why was the Bible rewritten? The Bible is nothing but a book of theories. Unlike science, it doesn't have to prove itself. Science is at a huge disadvantage because it has to be proven before it's truly believed. The Bible is supposed to be believed or you will go to Hell. You keep talking about science. How about the stories the Bible tells? About the man living in the belly of the fish?
ok... backup a second. try reading the thread from start to finish and take my words in context.

the bible says nothing about alien life. (at least no Christian bible or other major religion says anything -which is why I said major religions, obviously if science could prove that there is definitely no other life in the universe the Scientology is screwed).

the whole thread is about alien life.

if we find aliens, the bible can remain unchanged, if we don't find aliens the bible can remain unchanged...

that's my answer to the OP's question, on how alien life affects the bible and it's teaching...

though I think that Seti put it much better.
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it won't make one shitting difference

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Saying that science is one-dimensional is incorrect. The trick with science is that you choose to believe in whichever theory seems to be constructed by the better evidence.
I'm not really saying is one dimensional, just that there are tested methodologies.

you disprove a theory, then people stop believing that theory and believe something else. I guess what I was more saying is that science is dynamic, theories are conceived and you actually ask people to prove them wrong.

religions a bit different, you take an old theory, and just shout at detractors


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I completely agree with this. However, I find it important to note that with this ambiguity comes a strong sense of unreliability.
I agree, completely...
but ambiguity doesn't necessarily mean untrustworthy.

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if the spontaneous creation of universes is backed by physics, then it does disprove the existence of a God to a certain degree. If God created the universe, and now we "know" that the universe does not require God to be created, then this causes significant uncertainties on the necessity of a God in the first place.
Ahh, no.. you see god created physics too.
and everything we see.
if you find evidence that god didn't exist, well god created that evidence too, the evidence that proves god didn't exist was created by god, the fact it's their proves the existence of god.

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The way you put it, you essentially said that the Bible provides a better explanation because it does not need to be altered to deal with different circumstances (unlike science). All I'm saying is that the nature of this property causes questions of reliability to be asked.
I'm not religious, and don;t believe in God, just pointing out the arguments.
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Old 09-22-2010, 04:38 PM   #30
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Default Re: Life on Europa -- Need Religious "Experts"

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Ahh, no.. you see god created physics too.
and everything we see.
if you find evidence that god didn't exist, well god created that evidence too, the evidence that proves god didn't exist was created by god, the fact it's their proves the existence of god.
Let's recall that this argument expands from "[And on such day, God created the universe]". This ambiguity to me DOES mean that the bible is untrustworthy. Here's a similar concept. I advertise myself saying, "I fix stuff". You come up to me and ask, "Do you fix TVs?". I'll answer, "Why? Yes, I do". You then ask, "Do you fix refrigerators?". I can answer, "Why? Yes, I do." Whatever you ask me, I can answer that I'm capable of fixing it. After all, my advertisement said, "I fix stuff." Would you trust me to fix your items? The "[God created the Universe]" line works in the same concept. Whatever a scientist uses a proof, people will just answer, "well God created that." So if the statement can be used on every argument, then it doesn't mean much at all. It doesn't have any validity because it's meaning is so ambiguous. Therefore, I content that when the Bible is read like that it becomes untrustworthy. So when I ask for references to alien life this plays a role. Assuming it did have references, more could be debated. Since nothing is stated, we can only speculate on what is inferred by the lack of reference to alien life.
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