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Old 09-19-2010, 04:45 PM   #11
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Default Re: Life on Europa -- Need Religious "Experts"

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Originally Posted by David Lindon View Post
Personally I think if there is another race it would have been mentioned at some point in the bible so I don't there is any significant other live out there
So what you're saying is that the lack of a reference to another race implies that they did not believe in the existence on another race?
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Old 09-19-2010, 05:56 PM   #12
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Default Re: Life on Europa -- Need Religious "Experts"

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Ok, before I start, let me make a few things clear:
-If you're coming here to impose your opinions on others, GTFO.
-If you're here to judge the opinion of others, GTFO.
-I don't want to know what your opinion of Science v. Religion is, if you're here for that GTFO.

Moving on. I watched an interesting video of the possibility of life in Europa. Europa is one of the moons of Jupiter. It is believed that beneath 10km of ice exists an enormous amount of water, presumably one continuous sub-ice ocean. Within this ocean, the possibility of life is a real one.

What I would like to know from you guys is the interpretation of Bible regarding life. Is it exclusive to the Earth? What does the Bible (and other religious texts) say in reference to the existence of life. I would prefer if you guys could back it up with specific sources (quotes). I am interested in observing what the ramifications on life in Europa would cause on Humanity.

Thank you for your time,
Joga
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So what you're saying is that the lack of a reference to another race implies that they did not believe in the existence on another race?
?
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Old 09-19-2010, 06:26 PM   #13
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Default Re: Life on Europa -- Need Religious "Experts"

Joe,

hes just asking for a clarification
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Old 09-19-2010, 08:36 PM   #14
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Default Re: Life on Europa -- Need Religious "Experts"

Why would the Bible talk about other planets? It was written by people under the guidance of God, not by God. People then didn't know anything about other planets so it wasn't mentioned. If there is another planet with life on it, they may very well have their own Bible all under the same God, who knows. Science and religion don't mix well though.
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Old 09-20-2010, 12:21 AM   #15
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Default Re: Life on Europa -- Need Religious "Experts"

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Joe,

hes just asking for a clarification
Yes, I'm trying to clearly understand everyone's points.

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Originally Posted by superman22x View Post
Why would the Bible talk about other planets? It was written by people under the guidance of God, not by God. People then didn't know anything about other planets so it wasn't mentioned. If there is another planet with life on it, they may very well have their own Bible all under the same God, who knows. Science and religion don't mix well though.
This statement has a strong assumption, namely that life in other planets inherently means intelligent life. One would think that the chances of intelligent life on another planet (or moon in this occasion) is far smaller than just life itself. The existence of multiple intelligent life forms across the universe that do believe in an ultimate being would account for a strong cause on the existence of such being. In a way, life on other planets could be beneficial to religions on Earth. What I am searching for, if it exists, is a declaration that denies any possible existence of extraterrestrial life. Furthermore, I search for the interpretation of others in the occurrence of a religion neglecting to mention such existence of life.
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Old 09-20-2010, 02:34 AM   #16
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Default Re: Life on Europa -- Need Religious "Experts"

Honestly, who knows? Maybe the Bible refers to a bunch of aliens that came down a long time ago and left. It doesn't matter if you believe in evolution or creation, the chance for intelligent life outside Earth is pretty high, isn't it? We are but one planet among billions. You also have to remember that the Universe is constantly expanding/growing. Maybe we did have visitors thousands of years ago who just can't find the place anymore.

I do have a question. Now, the Bible refers to "god" creating man in his image, right? Supposed we find some sort of mutant life on another planet that looks nothing like us. How exactly would that work religion wise? This is a legitimate question.
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Old 09-20-2010, 08:35 AM   #17
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Default Re: Life on Europa -- Need Religious "Experts"

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I do have a question. Now, the Bible refers to "god" creating man in his image, right? Supposed we find some sort of mutant life on another planet that looks nothing like us. How exactly would that work religion wise? This is a legitimate question.
Well, I'm a firm believer in creation and feel that if God were to make another race, they would also be in his image, just not exactly the same as us. There's also the possibility that they look very similar to us as well. Additionally, what is "his image" exactly? Our facial features? Two arms and two legs? There's a lot open to conversation on that... Good question.

To the original question, the only real mention of creation beyond the earth is in Genesis 1:16 -
"God made two great lights--the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars."
This can be interpreted into the literal word, meaning that there was no other creation besides the stars for our enjoyment. I was raised in a very fundamentalist religion and the belief was simply that. Our God created the Earth and the rest of the universe for our viewing pleasure. However, now that I have grown up a little, I realize that this may not be exactly true. Why do I say this? Simply becuase there's so many 'stars' that billions of them are not even in our range of vision. Now if these were indeed created just for us, then why would we not be able to see some of them? Simplistic logic, sure, but still a valid question.
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Old 09-20-2010, 10:29 AM   #18
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Default Re: Life on Europa -- Need Religious "Experts"

You would think that chances of life outside the Earth are pretty high, however you need to take into consideration that the set of specific circumstances in which life is viable is very rigid. Among the billions of stars there will most likely exist life despite this restriction. The fact that life probably exists elsewhere means nothing if we can't see it as a human race. It will remain speculation until we see it with our on eyes. Once that happens, the ramifications will be quite interesting. What this thread is all about is analyzing what these ramifications would be.
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Old 09-20-2010, 10:42 AM   #19
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Default Re: Life on Europa -- Need Religious "Experts"

now, I'm not a believer, nor any kind of religious expert...

but I feel the need to ignore the instructions in the first post and give my opinions anyway...

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Originally Posted by superman22x View Post
Why would the Bible talk about other planets? It was written by people under the guidance of God, not by God.
Science and religion don't mix well though.
exactly, it would make sense that on this planet you would not write about other life forms. on other planets. even if a God could have envisaged that man would explore the stars, there is no reason a God should put out a warning.
likewise, if there were intelligent life on another planet, there is a good chance that their religious scriptures would not mention us.

Science and religion don't mix because they are two different mind sets. and science cannot think like religion.


we don't need to change the text of the bible to accept that there may be other life on other planets, but we do need to throw away a lot of scientific papers that say that life can't exist.
equally if life doesn't exist on other planets we'll need to throw away all the papers that say it can. (if we find out it's impossible to sustain life on other planets). but the bible and all other religious text (proper religions not cults) can remain unchanged.

science is all about saying this is how it is, looking at everything to the minutest detail and documenting it.


The bible tells you God created the universe.
Science will tell you that the universe was created with a big bang...

only an idiot scientists will tell you that there is no God.
(I say only an idiot scientist, because science is about having a theory and proving that theory, and showing how you prove that theory, in a sustainable repeatable way, only then can it be a scientific fact...).
there is no proof that God didn't create the universe, indeed even if science could irrefutably prove that the universe was created in a big bang type scenario, they still won't ever know what created the big bang, and still can't prove that that's just not how god created the universe.

both theories are pretty convinced that in the beginning there was nothing...

big bang says:
universe kind of exploded out of nothing but pure energy...

bible says:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

i.e. bible says, something that is completely intangible, (God) created the universe

big bang then says:
Stars and planets formed:

Bible says:
2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

so the bible says that the earth is formed as a lump of rock.

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

so the bible is saying first the earth was created, then the much larger sun (importantly OUR sun that illuminates OUR planet) comes second... which is a fair analysis, and agrees with what the big bang is saying...

the big bang/theory of how planets are made would suggest that ice can exist, or water in it's elemental form may exist, and upon receiving energy from a sun, that ice would melt into water.

6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so.

Yup, science also says that water flows to the lowest point, leaving land between the seas...

8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.

science says that when you get water you can then get get...

11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

plants would clear our atmosphere, without life our atmosphere would probably be much like our closest matched planet (Venus). which is cloudy, scientist have predicted for years that putting organic plant life onto Venus would actually change it's sulphur rich atmosphere. clear the atmosphere and you can see the stars?

14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

water creatures first :science agrees

20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

creatures then start to occupy land, (science agrees).

24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

after the land and air are full of animals and plants science also says that man came along much later.

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [b] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."


a simple analysis, I know...

but what I've written above show that both the big bang theory and the theory of evolution are both pretty much in keeping with the bible. and quite literally what the bible says...
the only difference would be that creatures "probably" came out of water onto land before taking to the sky as birds...


both theories start with nothing and put everything in in pretty much the right order (I mean they both agree with each other, not that I know the order and am just letting you know)...



Quote:
What I am searching for, if it exists, is a declaration that denies any possible existence of extraterrestrial life. Furthermore, I search for the interpretation of others in the occurrence of a religion neglecting to mention such existence of life.
It doesn't exist, religion is wonderfully wooley like that.
nothing is particularly defined or nailed down which is why it's so enormously hard to prove wrong.

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Originally Posted by InfectionZero View Post
Well, I'm a firm believer in creation and feel the if God were to make another race, they would also be in his image, just not exactly the same as us. There's also the possibility that they look very similar to us as well. Additionally, what is "his image" exactly? Our facial features? Two arms and two legs? There's a lot open to conversation on that... Good question.
that's proof if ever there were any about exactly what I'm saying.

if four limbs and a face are enough to be considered as made in Gods image then horses dogs cats, lizards monkeys and god knows what else ('scuse the pun) could be said to be made in Gods image.

I suppose we could get more detailed as say that two eyes, a nose a mouth and ears, teeth...

but all the animals I already said have all those things!

Quote:
Simply becuase there's so many 'stars' that billions of them are not even in our range of vision. Now if these were indeed created just for us, then why would we not be able to see some of them? Simplistic logic, sure, but still a valid question.
that's the best argument i've heard against the God made all the stars for our pleasure...

The point is that religion is flexible. you could call it ill defined, but it's exactly that that means that it can still capture man's imagination, it's exactly that that means that it can't be disproved.

it's only when some scientist comes along and tries to take a 2000 year old book that's been translated from different languages influenced politically over the translations, prone to human error in the translation and written over the course of hundreds of years anyway and tries to treat it like some kind of research paper that there are problems...


and anyway, who knows, maybe the original bible did tell of alien races.


what would we do with a person now who claims to have been visited by God and told of strange alien worlds in the sky inhabited by people not like us, but who are intelligent like us??

we'd probably lock them up as a danger to society.

certainly we wouldn't be adding their thoughts to our religious texts.
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Old 09-20-2010, 11:13 AM   #20
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Default Re: Life on Europa -- Need Religious "Experts"

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Well, I'm a firm believer in creation and feel the if God were to make another race, they would also be in his image, just not exactly the same as us. There's also the possibility that they look very similar to us as well. Additionally, what is "his image" exactly? Our facial features? Two arms and two legs? There's a lot open to conversation on that... Good question.
"His Image and Likeness" refers to the nature of God and his ability to choose and reason, not his physical appearance.
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