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Old 06-15-2010, 11:30 PM   #41
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Default Re: Karl Marx

what J said. +1
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Old 06-16-2010, 12:54 AM   #42
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Default Re: Karl Marx

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Originally Posted by Warren View Post
You would make everyone on this forum very happy if you would take your own advice.
Uh oh I think you're going to wake up the beast. Clear to say: GF
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Old 06-16-2010, 05:13 AM   #43
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Default Re: Karl Marx

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Originally Posted by Warren View Post
Karl Marx? You believe he had great ideas? Socialism is a great idea? Capitalism is the root of all evil? They seem to make sense but they DON'T WORK! So we just give people money that supposedly comes from the rich! Money for nothing! Yeah a great idea! We just print a bunch of paper and everyone has money! All great ideas! We just kill all the rich people and spread all their money! YAY!
that's not what he said at all.


[qoute]THOSE IDEAS ARE THE STUPIDEST THINGS I HAVE EVER HEARD! THEY DON'T MAKE ANY SENSE! IN CAPITALISM PEOPLE HAVE THE CHANCE TO ADVANCE IN SOCIETY! LOOK AT RUSSIA! EVERYONE WAS THE SAME! THEY ALL LIVED IN GULAGS AND COULD BE KILLED FOR ANY REASON! A WONDERFUL IDEA ISN'T IT?[/quote] firstly you're wrong, not everybody was the same and people did advance through society.
and the reason that you think it's just so crazy is that you've got a twisted and incorrect view of what socialism is.

Quote:
And that socialized health care, isn't it wonderful? You have to wait 12 months for cancer treatment, but everyone is treated the same!
we have socialized healthcare in the UK, nobody has to wait 12 months for cancer treatment, and yes, everybody has equal access to healthcare, but that's essentially because everybody pays, it's an insurance scheme, much like any policy that would cover your family, just it covers an entire population.

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You can't consume more than you produce.
yes you can.
fact

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Besides, not everyone was the same. I don't think everyone lived in the Kremlin and had an elegant lifestyle.
so you realise that in socialism there are different levels of society and it is possible to progress through it? even though earlier in the same post you said that you couldn't?

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Only the people who were high up in the government actually had a great life. Everyone else were just slaves working in a failing system.
the same can be said about a capitalist society, if you're rich then great, if your poor you're miserable. you feel like a slave working in a failing system...

if you're poor it doesn't matter about your great ideas because you're earning to live, not develop ideas and launch a business. you are basically working for the system and not progressing, you can be just as much a slave in a capitalist society as you can in a communist one.



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I would actually love socialized medicine.. seriously, that would rock. I personally have all my health care taken care of by the VA so I get somewhat socialized medicine and it's fantastic! Never pay a dime, which is the way it should be.
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Buahaha yea that's true but still, socialized medicine is the way to go. Free healthcare for all. They don't have those kinds of problems in Canada, why take the U.K.'s example...there's plenty of countries that have socialized medicine in better conditions than the U.K.'s Hell even Cuba has better healthcare than us.
And in these countries health care isn't free for all handing out pills like candy...

we still pay for our prescription medicines, (the only exception to that is that Children get entirely free NHS healthcare). and don't pay for prescriptions, people who are pregnant get free prescriptions, and pensioners get free prescriptions.

for the rest of us, (funnily enough the ones that are paying into the scheme) it's not free, it's only subsidised.

the other thing is that you don't get 'the best there is to offer' healthcare on the NHS... but lets face it, there are no (obvious) millionaires on this forum, so you probably don't get "the best there is to offer" on your insurance policies that you American guys on here have either... you get stuff that's proven to work...

just in this country we get our proven to work by people trained as clinicians, working on boards, who are accountable to the government, in your country the people who are deciding what works and what's affordable on your policy are the under-writers, and they aren't trained clinicians, they are trained accountants...

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Originally Posted by sniperviper21 View Post
People who don't have good healthcare and bitch bother me if they live in the USA. If they really care maybe they should do something about it and perhaps try to get a job w great healthcare. It can be done if someone really wants it
it's not always that easy though. sometimes it's difficult enough just to find a job, let alone find a job paying a decent wage with healthcare benefits.


and FYI, that politician Daniel Hannan was wrong.


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Originally Posted by Warren View Post
And that socialized health care, isn't it wonderful? You have to wait 12 months for cancer treatment, but everyone is treated the same!
http://www.nhs.uk/nhsengland/NSF/pages/Cancer.aspx

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Waiting times

Currently all patients referred with suspected cancer by their GP have a maximum two-weeks wait to see a specialist. This will be extended from December 2009 to include all patients referred for investigation of breast symptoms even if cancer is not initially suspected.

Cancer patients should wait no more than 31 days from decision to treat to the start of their first treatment. This also covers all additional surgery and drug treatments including subsequent treatments. From 2010, this will also be available for all radiotherapy and other treatments including subsequent treatments.

All patients should wait a maximum 62 days from urgent GP referral to the start of treatment. This 62 day standard also includes all patients referred from NHS cancer screening programmes (breast, cervical and bowel) and those patients whose consultant considers cancer a possible diagnosis.
basically, that bit about waiting 12 months is complete BS,

you have to wait AT MOST 2 weeks to see a specialist.
you have to wait AT MOST 1 month to start treatment once treatment is recommended, you have to wait AT MOST 2 months between referral to treatment start, (if treatment is recommended).
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Old 06-16-2010, 05:26 AM   #44
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Default Re: Karl Marx

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it's not always that easy though. sometimes it's difficult enough just to find a job, let alone find a job paying a decent wage with healthcare benefits.
of course. just ya have to be smart about where your going in the job field.
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Old 06-16-2010, 08:42 AM   #45
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Default Re: Karl Marx

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Originally Posted by InfectionZero View Post
Buahaha yea that's true but still, socialized medicine is the way to go. Free healthcare for all. They don't have those kinds of problems in Canada, why take the U.K.'s example...there's plenty of countries that have socialized medicine in better conditions than the U.K.'s Hell even Cuba has better healthcare than us.
ya "free" lol. nothing in life is free. the money has to come from somewhere. which means higher taxes, higher fees. NOTHING IS FREE! All socialized medicine will do is make us pay more out of pocket for other things like federal income tax and sales taxes.

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings;
the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."
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Old 06-16-2010, 09:57 AM   #46
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Default Re: Karl Marx

Well, in the constitution, income is defined as monies that are earned from business... not personal work or labor. The money you earn from labor is yours to keep. I have never paid taxes because it's unconstitutional. I'm sure the IRS, which is not a part of the federal government but somehow still has the right to tax, will someday find me and I'll end up in court. But I've heard of courts finding people innocent as taxes are unconstitutional. So you're right, healthcare is not free, but it should be paid for by those who are making the billions of dollars each year. The big businesses should be taking care of the little guy in this country. I'm not bi---ing about the healthcare in this country because I don't have a good job and can't afford it because like I said earlier, I get my healthcare for free through the VA as a disabled Iraq war vet. I still think it's jacked up though that suzie Q and her son can't go into a hospital and get long term care for little johnny because she doesn't have health insurance nor the money to pay for it. Healthcare should be a basic human right.
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Old 06-16-2010, 10:03 AM   #47
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Default Re: Karl Marx

But just cause a company makes billions of dollars, doesn't mean it's rich. It also has billions of dollars in expenses already... 15% of CAT and John Deere's profit will go towards this healthcare bill. Two of the biggest American companies... You remember what happened when the big 3 dropped 30% of their sales? Now these companies are losing 15% of their profits... I can see that being a problem... If you pin everything on the rich, which is what most americans seem to want to do... They will leave eventually.
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Old 06-16-2010, 10:07 AM   #48
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Default Re: Karl Marx

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Originally Posted by InfectionZero View Post
Well, in the constitution, income is defined as monies that are earned from business... not personal work or labor. The money you earn from labor is yours to keep. I have never paid taxes because it's unconstitutional. I'm sure the IRS, which is not a part of the federal government but somehow still has the right to tax, will someday find me and I'll end up in court. But I've heard of courts finding people innocent as taxes are unconstitutional. So you're right, healthcare is not free, but it should be paid for by those who are making the billions of dollars each year. The big businesses should be taking care of the little guy in this country. I'm not bi---ing about the healthcare in this country because I don't have a good job and can't afford it because like I said earlier, I get my healthcare for free through the VA as a disabled Iraq war vet. I still think it's jacked up though that suzie Q and her son can't go into a hospital and get long term care for little johnny because she doesn't have health insurance nor the money to pay for it. Healthcare should be a basic human right.


i dont think it should be a right at all. but thats just me.

And yes i believe taxes are horseshit, but you know what? those fighter jets and ammo for the military doesnt pay for itself.

i dont mind paying SOME taxes. but right now tax is just ridiculous.
But i also dont look at big business and scream "please help me" ill help myself thanks.

the one thing id like to see though, is Gas prices taken back down to 1 dollar or less a gallon. there is absolutely no need for oil companies to be netting hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars in profit. Its just too excessive.
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Old 06-16-2010, 10:21 AM   #49
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Default Re: Karl Marx

Apologies, didn't mean to imply that only the rich are taxed. However, I do believe that there should be a sliding scale on which businesses are taxed. The more profit you make as a business, the higher the tax. The only problem there would be the perception that the American dream is now unatainable because the better you do, the more you pay. I'm sure though, that it could be adjusted to where it was reasonably able to provide healthcare for all legal citizens, and those who are not legal, without too much issue.

**I say "and those who are not legal" because like I said, healthcare should be a basic human right. The welfare system, and other such things, however, should only be granted to legal citizens of the country.
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Old 06-16-2010, 10:45 AM   #50
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Default Re: Karl Marx

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Apologies, didn't mean to imply that only the rich are taxed. However, I do believe that there should be a sliding scale on which businesses are taxed. The more profit you make as a business, the higher the tax. The only problem there would be the perception that the American dream is now unatainable because the better you do, the more you pay. I'm sure though, that it could be adjusted to where it was reasonably able to provide healthcare for all legal citizens, and those who are not legal, without too much issue.

**I say "and those who are not legal" because like I said, healthcare should be a basic human right. The welfare system, and other such things, however, should only be granted to legal citizens of the country.

well if you paid tax, or even bothered to open a book. youd know thats EXACTLY how it works already. the more you make the more they take. theyre called "tax-brackets"

And if you allow ANYONE to just come to this country and get healthcare. then EVERY FLIGHT COMING IN FROM EVERY COUNTRY WILL BE SOLD OUT. hospitals would be overbooked. emergency rooms would be 10 day waits. and this country would go broke and collapse in less than a year.


oh YEAAAAA great idea.


i cant believe people like you vote. GOD HELP US ALL, THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO! lol.

wow, just wow.

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**I say "and those who are not legal" because like I said, healthcare should be a basic human right. The welfare system, and other such things, however, should only be granted to legal citizens of the country.


Lets just put up a sign in every airport in every country that says "visit the USA! FREE drugs and surgery! its your RIGHT!"
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