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Old 06-12-2005, 02:55 PM   #81
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Default Re: Firearms? Whos got em.

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Root you stated that you have the coice to go naked in your house , but you choose not to.. That is your choice...and that is as it should be.
It is the same as to whether I should own a firearm...for whatever reason , If I am legally able to purchase it then I should be able to do so with out anyone coming in here saying that I shouldn't or can't or that if I buy one my children will get ahold of it and kill me and all the neighbors and all the other people in the world to. It is horse manure.
you're right, the idea that if you as a law abiding citizen with good kids and a steady life shouldn't be able to use society freely is a joke, I mean if you havn't done and show no intention of doing anything wrong, then rightly you should be able to have whatever you want,

My argument lies in the fact that people who haven't and can't prove that they are a responisble member of the society are still allowed the same privellage.

For instance:
here in the Uk we heavily (try) to license firearms, to be able to own a gun you have to have your certificate signed by two responisible members of society (I.E police men) in order to own guns, you have to have the storage location inside your house checked to make sure that your guns are safe from children on their own, and asfe from people braking nito your house to use a weapons against you. (and that you cannot pick up a gun in haste)...

anyway, should you prove yuor self a responsible keeper then you aer able to have guns (as we do in my house), if you cannot proove yourself worthy you are not (leagally) allowed to own a gun, and the penalties for owning a gun without a license is prison time.

To the question of knives, yes, I have had and do own knives and have done probably since I was about 13, I have a couple of proper woodsman knives, some fishing knives and multitool things.

(I never ran with siccors either buzz!)
I was taught knife safety both at home and at scouts -where I also learned things like axecraft.

The point is I was taught responsibly,
again here in the UK it's illegal to sell a knife to somebody under 18, the age that they are a legally responsible adult.
is there such a provision in the law in america, or are juevenilles allowed to buy knives? (really I don't know this)

we have simillar laws regardnig swords and other ninja weapons

If you as a parent decide to take on the resoponsibility of alowing your children access to (potential) weapons, then you should be allowed to (as my parents did with both guns and knives).

however you cannot assume that everybody will have the same responsible attitude as you, and therefore, by licensing firearms, you hope to reduce the amount of people who have access to weapons (that will use them irrisonsibly)

Quote:
the right to be free!!!......even today in these times there are those from other countries that die at the hands of others for the sole reason that they wanted to be free from tyranny. Or for those that have lost their lives just to try to get to a better place to raise a family or to even provide for them.
But surely you realise that much of that tyrany comes at the hands of people with guns?

Quote:
Has anyone actually gone hunting
Yes, I've been "shooting for the pot"

(that means shooting game and instead of just killing it, taking it home and putting it to use -eating it).
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Old 06-12-2005, 03:16 PM   #82
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Default Re: Firearms? Whos got em.

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Originally Posted by root
For instance:
here in the Uk we heavily (try) to license firearms, to be able to own a gun you have to have your certificate signed by two responisible members of society (I.E police men) in order to own guns, you have to have the storage location inside..........
There are rules governing the sale of firearms in America and that is how it should be so as to guarantee that those that should not have them doesn't get them. But to your quaote above is exactly why I say that to bear arms should not be taken away by anyone.
while not trying to take your statement out of context, It still shows the mentallity that is present between a free state and a not so free state....
Your example tends to lead someone to the thinking that only policemen or governing agents are the ONLY RESPONSIBLE Members of YOUR SOCIETY.
Are you not a responsible person? If not then you don't need the right to own a gun. But Here we are all guaranteed that we are responsible and as such it is the responsibility of the government to prove otherwise. In your country the government keeps you down by making you prove that you are of good mind and all. In my country the government must prove that I am unworthy first. and That is how it should be. Do you have to prove you are worthy to vote, or you worthy to own a house or to live in london or the suburbs. What does your government say you are worthy of doing. maybe that is what you should look at.
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Old 06-12-2005, 03:25 PM   #83
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Default Re: Firearms? Whos got em.

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Originally Posted by lurkswithin
The difference is quite simple. To drive a car is a priviledge...thus you must earn that right..
To own a gun is a right that is given to every law abiding citizen that is within the laws (age,mentallity,non criminal) and that is all there should be. to retrict it further would be tatamount to revoking the RIGHT.
Now while this may seem like symantics to you but It is what makes the Constitution what it is. Certain rights are guaranteed to us as certain proof that we are free, to speak, to move about, and to have a control over congress. To remove or restrict these rights is to undermine that guarantee.
Now to get back to the issue here. what should I care if you have a gun or not. or that my neighbor has the capabilities of making a weapon of mass distruction. That should not even be a discussion as to what my neighbor has or has not. It is really non of my business and I accept that fact. If you are so concerned about what your neighbor has then move. Take your family and move to someplace that you no longer have that fear. But don't you dare try to make me responsibile for your being scared of your neighbor or scared of what he may or maynot do.
Urrggghhh. I'm not saying you shouldn't have a gun or that I'm afraid of people who do. I'm just saying that there should be more stringent regulations. Yes, I know, driving is a privilege. That doesn't make guns any less dangerous than a car.

As for your neighbor, let's try something a bit more benign. Let's say he has a dog. A very noisy dog. You can't sleep at night cuz that bitch is barking nonstop. He's got the right to own a dog as long as he takes care of it properly, right? It's not the owner's fault that it likes to be loud. If moving out is the solution to my 'fear' of your gun, then wouldn't it be the same solution to your lack of sleep?

Once again, this is just an example. I don't want you to think I'm attacking your ideals. That's one of the problems with issues like this: people get defensive very quickly. Everybody does it. I just hope you see that I'm not trying to get in your business. I don't have any fear of my neighbors, and even if I did, I certainly wouldn't be blaming you. It was just an example.

Back to the main point: the right to own these weapons. Yes, it is a right. People are constitutionally allowed guns. Even though the amendment was meant for wartime purposes, it doesn't specifically say that. I know how contracts work. They should have written that in the amendment, but they didn't. However, you don't think it would be wise to implement one or two simple tests to determine one's capacity to own a gun? I mean, there's already the waiting period to get the results of the criminal background check. The second amendment said nothing about not giving guns to criminals. That seems pretty unconstitutional. So, I say, if you're against making sure people can responsibly use guns, you're also against keeping criminals away from them.
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Old 06-12-2005, 03:36 PM   #84
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Default Re: Firearms? Whos got em.

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Originally Posted by lurkswithin
It still shows the mentallity that is present between a free state and a not so free state....
Ummm.... did you just write that?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurkswithin
Are you not a responsible person? If not then you don't need the right to own a gun. But Here we are all guaranteed that we are responsible and as such it is the responsibility of the government to prove otherwise. In your country the government keeps you down by making you prove that you are of good mind and all. In my country the government must prove that I am unworthy first. and That is how it should be. Do you have to prove you are worthy to vote, or you worthy to own a house or to live in london or the suburbs. What does your government say you are worthy of doing. maybe that is what you should look at.
It's true. The United States government does such a good job guaranteeing that we are responsible and intelligent by decreasing SAT and standard military tests' difficulties. Unfortunately, the test scores were becoming too low. Good thing we made the standard lower, too! Now we're all smart again! And what about our convenient 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' policy. I could go on....

EDIT> Did you ever consider that other governments proving responsibility instead of irresponsibility in terms of weapons is why murder rates are so incredibly low compared to here? Maybe a country full of people used to being automatically assumed responsible have become complacent. In other countries, they must be proven responsible, and in order to be proven responsible, you really do have to be. Maybe that's why they're more responsible than us????
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Old 06-12-2005, 03:39 PM   #85
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absolutly not,
In the case with the neighbor and his loud dog. First off it is his problem about the barking dog. There are laws about disturbing the peace and if the dog is found to that. That speaks for itself.
In as such there are laws governing the sale of firearms and the distribution of firearms. and that in itself is enough. To make me have TO PROVE that I am able to own a firearm restricts the right to own that firearm. I should not have to nor ever have to PROVE that I am capable of having a RIGHT given to me by the Constitution of These United States.
That in itself is what it means. TO NOT HAVE TO PROVE THAT. IT STATES THAT I AM BORN TO IT. It is up to the govenment to PROVE that I am NOT abiding by the laws and am no longer capable. That is what the laws do and that is what they are intended to do.
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Old 06-12-2005, 03:45 PM   #86
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Default Re: Firearms? Whos got em.

What if the dog doesn't stop barking? What can be done? Even if kept inside, this dog is LOUD! You can hear it across the block!!! Nothing can be done. It's his right to keep that dog, even if it is loud. Anyway, it was an EXAMPLE.

The second amendment said nothing about people who do not abide by 'the laws.' So you're saying that you want all criminals to be allowed guns as well. I guess it's settled then. That was a fun debate.


EDIT> P.S. You might have already, but be sure to read the edit in my previous post. I think I'm about done with this thread, so resume the gun chat! (And don't forget to say your good riddance!)
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Old 06-12-2005, 04:03 PM   #87
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Spank_fusion,
No I don't think at all that you are attacking my so callwe "Ideals". The point is that they are not my ideals. They are the law. You have an IDEAL to change the law. I wish to keep it as it is. The problem here lies in the fact that you wish to take away the freedom that the constitution guarantees us all to have. That freedom is the simplest form that I am born to certain rights. When you or anyone else starts to impose restrictions on those freedoms then it is undermining that right. I should not have to prove that I am capable of a right. Period. If the government or you or anyone else has reasons to believe that I am not capable of it then let them try me in court on aan individual basis as it is me that you are accusing. Because a handful of people slip through the cracks in the laws is not reason enough to deny the rights of all others.
To do so is totally irresponsible in itself. And to then bring up other issues about education and put them in as part of the debate on OUR RIGHTS as CITIZENS of THESE UNITED STATES really is out in left field and has no bearing here.
And YES, I wrote that about "free states" and I all and it speakes for itself. In a true free society do you have to prove that you are capable of having the rights given to you by law...NO.... if you have to prove that you are capable of having the rights then you are not free.

Now I have a prior engagement and will be glad to carry this discussion on later when I get back...
In the meantime you have a nice day and don't let that shackle around your leg chafe you too much.
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Old 06-12-2005, 04:35 PM   #88
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Hmmm.... you aren't very good at debating. Threats aren't usually too effective in debate. Also, you seem to have trouble following the timeline and reasoning lines of the discussion. It's okay, though. Practice makes perfect. I don't feel like elaborating. I've already spent too much time beating this dead horse. I'm done!


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Now this is uncalled for. Sounds too much like some one else that used to be here. If you don't like the other members and/or the subject matter of this or any thread, then click, click and move on...
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Old 06-12-2005, 05:59 PM   #89
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Default Re: Firearms? Whos got em.

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Originally Posted by spank_fusion
Hmmm.... you aren't very good at debating. Threats aren't usually too effective in debate. Also, you seem to have trouble following the timeline and reasoning lines of the discussion. It's okay, though. Practice makes perfect. I don't feel like elaborating. I've already spent too much time beating this dead horse. I'm done!


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Now this is uncalled for. Sounds too much like some one else that used to be here. If you don't like the other members and/or the subject matter of this or any thread, then click, click and move on...
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Like ya...
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Old 06-12-2005, 06:03 PM   #90
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Default Re: Firearms? Whos got em.

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Originally Posted by setishock
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Now this is uncalled for. Sounds too much like some one else that used to be here. If you don't like the other members and/or the subject matter of this or any thread, then click, click and move on...
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Sorry, seti. I just get frustrated when people don't understand the points I'm trying to make or even what I'm trying to make them ABOUT. But as I said, I'm moving on. There's nothing to see here.

No hard feelings, lurkswithin! I just like to debate. It's a hobby of mine, and sometimes I get carried away.
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