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Old 06-01-2005, 06:43 PM   #21
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Default Re: European constitution...

I wasn't ranting...

I was simply stating the truth... most of the views stated commnig from the radio that's playing in my ear...

A 25 (though possibly 30) country super state (working to common goals efficiently) would be the worlds largest tradecentre, and the worlds largest super power, (in terms of military)... ther is no way even you could possibly deny that...
it's a very idealogical view, (the countries will never work together). but if it were to ever happen, it woul irreversably shift the balance of power in theo world...

so far as the economy, most independant public broadcasters (BBC radio, times and Guardian) have all indicated that the most likely reasons for the 'non' votewas (as I posted)...

dissilusions about the growth of europe, especially the inclusion of middle eastern countries that weren't gographicaly even in europe...

dissilusions about unemployment, which is at an all tmie high in france. (and it has been said -and was raised in Britain, that eastern block countries would most likely fill job shortages for both skilled and unskiled workers, simply because the standards of livnig and basic amenities and wagesare better in western european countires... -sadly unemployed wesern europeans don't migraet to eastern block countries, so they stay unemployed.

I didn't brand all french people as xenophobes
and I accuse pople such as mark, who think the constitution was about the euro taking away our individuality as being ignorant because they have disaprooved of something without haveing found out fully about it...

I did do my research, and in this case I count my research as switching on the radio, where I can't help but hear about it, watching news 24, where you can't help but hear about it... and sitting in the park during the sun on sunday and monday reading the papers.

so in short no I can't provide links, but had you actually read my post, I never said anything about employment levels in germany, (though I know they are low). I mentioned spcifically one country, the one cuontry that set the standard for voting no, and suggested reasons (allbe them reconstituted from other sources).

the EU constitution was very simillar in principal the the American constitution, it set about trying to order a disorganised mess of failing localised economies, is set about trying to frm common laws and rights that would cover the whole EU, and tried to set about rules for a common EU parliment...

frankly I stand by the views I stated that the 'non' vote was more based in dislike for their own government (President Jac chiraq's popularity has been doing down since he was re-elected)... in fact even the french government know was more about the popularity of polititians than the content of the consitution, -hence the massive reshuffle just days after the 'non' vote...

a reshuffle that included the firing of the french prime minister...
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Old 06-01-2005, 06:46 PM   #22
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Default Re: European constitution...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark thorpe
why do you think this?

it wasnt only the french, it was the dutch too... are they rude too?

the EU constitution needs to be delayed... its making europe go downhill... check out the links that gain posted...
seeing as at present ther is no such thing as te EU consitution, -just a draft bill awaiting approval...

how can it have been dragging countries downhill?
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Old 06-01-2005, 06:51 PM   #23
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Default Re: European constitution...

the european whatever, its still dragging the countries downhill... doesnt matter what its called... its still screwing it up...
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Old 06-01-2005, 06:51 PM   #24
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Default Re: European constitution...

Quote:
Originally Posted by root
I was simply stating the truth... most of the views stated commnig from the radio that's playing in my ear...
Here we go with a typical pompous attitude that gets you nowhere...

Quote:
A 25 (though possibly 30) country super state (working to common goals efficiently) would be the worlds largest tradecentre, and the worlds largest super power, (in terms of military)... ther is no way even you could possibly deny that...
it's a very idealogical view, (the countries will never work together). but if it were to ever happen, it woul irreversably shift the balance of power in theo world...
In terms of military? What are you on? that's totally wrong. The US easily defeats the entire EU militarily. The sheer number of funding we have, and projects... come on dude. In many EU countries, most of them don't even use 1% of their GDP towards defense. A superstate plagued with economic stagnation (and contraction).

Quote:
dissilusions about the growth of europe, especially the inclusion of middle eastern countries that weren't gographicaly even in europe...
Delusions you mean. What delusions? I'm looking at the cold hard facts. The EU is in trouble. I study economics by the way. I know how to read official figures. Recently Britain put out a very disappointing economic figure for manufacturing I believe. Also Turkey isn't a middle eastern country. It is part of an area called Asia Minor.

Quote:
dissilusions about unemployment, which is at an all tmie high in france. (and it has been said -and was raised in Britain, that eastern block countries would most likely fill job shortages for both skilled and unskiled workers, simply because the standards of livnig and basic amenities and wagesare better in western european countires... -sadly unemployed wesern europeans don't migraet to eastern block countries, so they stay unemployed.
This is of course false. Delusions about unemployment? What delusions? You know what delusions means? False beliefs. Job shortages exist throughout Europe... and eastern european workers would cause more unemployment by increasing the size of the work force. This is basic economics.

Quote:
I did do my research, and in this case I count my research as switching on the radio, where I can't help but hear about it, watching news 24, where you can't help but hear about it... and sitting in the park during the sun on sunday and monday reading the papers.
What research? I didn't see any research? You haven't bothered looking up any new sources to back yourself up. I can easily post articles all day about OFFICIAL figures showing that the EU economy is in trouble as a whole.

Quote:
so in short no I can't provide links, but had you actually read my post, I never said anything about employment levels in germany, (though I know they are low). I mentioned spcifically one country, the one cuontry that set the standard for voting no, and suggested reasons (allbe them reconstituted from other sources).
Yeah I am reading your post.. and no it doesn't make sense. You never said anything about unemployment levels in Germany? Why not?!?1?!? The unemployment in Germany is not low! It surpassed France in terms of percentage some time ago.

Quote:
the EU constitution was very simillar in principal the the American constitution, it set about trying to order a disorganised mess of failing localised economies, is set about trying to frm common laws and rights that would cover the whole EU, and tried to set about rules for a common EU parliment...
No it is not. It in fact is very different, it proposes new restrictions, and promotes trading isolationism. It would of pushed the EU down the dangerous path it has been on. It would of caused prices to jump. Thank goodness people have had good sense in rejecting the constitution, which would of been disasterous.

Quote:
frankly I stand by the views I stated that the 'non' vote was more based in dislike for their own government (President Jac chiraq's popularity has been doing down since he was re-elected)... in fact even the french government know was more about the popularity of polititians than the content of the consitution, -hence the massive reshuffle just days after the 'non' vote...

a reshuffle that included the firing of the french prime minister...
Actually the no vote was based more on practically and common sense, rather then political objectives which the yes vote was about.
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Old 06-01-2005, 07:23 PM   #25
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Default Re: European constitution...

I've said it before and I'll say it againg, I wonder if you actually read what anyone else writes before you actually post... an no quoting line by line doesn't constitute reading...

Firstly, yes, saying that I was speaking the truth was rather pompous... so now you understand how I see yuo when yuo say that you are tright, your arguments can't be faulted your logic is perfect. the fact that you study economics does carry weight... though yuo obviously don't know everything about all the worlds econimies, if you didn you would be the lecturer rather than the student...

secondly
In terms of military, yes a 30 country super state with the military budget of 30 countries would indeed be more powerfull than the US... your ademant patriotism is cute at best but very deluded...

thirdly I do know whay deluded means
I also know the difference between the words disillusioned and deluded

just in case you don't...
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=disillusioned
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=deluded

the french (and other member countries) had an illusion that joining a unified currency would help their economy and employment...
they were disillusioned because that illusion was taken away...
they were not deluded because nobody told the or promised them falsly that joining a unified currency would end to all the worlds problms...

like I said try reading, and then try understanding... if you don't understand the big words dictionary.com might be a help to you?

fourthly, turkey is a middle eastern country...
or do you feel like disagreeing with a turkish embassy site now?

http://www.turkish-embassy.si/About_Turkey.htm
Turkey is unique in being on the one hand Balkan and European, and on the other, Middle Eastern...


Again... yuo've not read my post properly...
I clearly stated that many people in western european countries feel their jobs are in danger because of skilled eastern europeans who will work for less and still be greatfull for it. I know that wil increase unemployment, the point is it will increase the unemployment of western european workers in western european countries, and that is a big part of the 'non' vote, people are fearing for their jobs and livelyhoods...

research...
I said quite clearly, and any other people living in britain (or I imagine any other EU country) can back me up... this news has dominated the radio, tv and newspapers, I can't link you to a paper that is sitting in my house...
and frankly I wasn't really expecting you to be in such a disagreeable mood and didn't think I'd need to, and still don't feel the need to trawl internet news sites... quoting lines that back me up and linknig sound files...

I never talked about unemployent levels in Germay because the german public has not (as yet) rejectedthe consitution, therefore in this discussion the unemployment levels, (and how they may affect a vote) are meaningless...

both the yes and no votes were about political objectives...
if you can't see that then you should be glad you are still studying politics, it happens that they yes vote was regarding global politics, and the no vote was very localised politics. most people only loko at local politics...

Just to make an analogy on that point... I've lost count of the amount o discussions about britain joinnig the Euro that involve the words Pound great individuality, but fail to mention economic slide, foreign policies or anything else that matters a damn sight more than whose face is on the notes you buy beer with.
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Old 06-01-2005, 07:31 PM   #26
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Default Ahem!!!

First of all I know this is a very hot topic and a source of deep feelings.
But it's begining to shape up as another free for all. Keep it civil and cordial. Giancarlo turn it down a few notches. There is no reason to be so rude to other members that simply are voicing their opinions. And that goes for every one else as well.


Secondly, I personally didn't think the EU concept had a snowball's chance in a warm place of making it. I still think it won't survive.
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Old 06-01-2005, 07:37 PM   #27
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Default Re: European constitution...

Quote:
Originally Posted by root
Firstly, yes, saying that I was speaking the truth was rather pompous... so now you understand how I see yuo when yuo say that you are tright, your arguments can't be faulted your logic is perfect. the fact that you study economics does carry weight... though yuo obviously don't know everything about all the worlds econimies, if you didn you would be the lecturer rather than the student...
Yes you are very pompous, and should chill down. Your arguments lack logic and sources. I've posted sources and other facts..

Also I would try to improve my spelling. Makes my arguments look more professional.

It also appears you aren't reading my posts. I don't know everything about the worlds economies, but I know a fair share and I know enough I need citation to my arguments. No just go on these ranting sprees that have absolutely no back-up what-so-ever.

Quote:
secondly
In terms of military, yes a 30 country super state with the military budget of 30 countries would indeed be more powerfull than the US... your ademant patriotism is cute at best but very deluded...[
Very unsupported of you. This is wrong. The US military budget is bigger then Europe combined. That's a solid fact. Can't live with it? Fine.

Quote:
the french (and other member countries) had an illusion that joining a unified currency would help their economy and employment...
they were disillusioned because that illusion was taken away...
they were not deluded because nobody told the or promised them falsly that joining a unified currency would end to all the worlds problms...

like I said try reading, and then try understanding... if you don't understand the big words dictionary.com might be a help to you?
That was a simple mistake on my part. You need to stop being so so arrogant. Besides you have used the wrong word. Delusion is more appropriate.

Quote:
http://www.turkish-embassy.si/About_Turkey.htm
Turkey is unique in being on the one hand Balkan and European, and on the other, Middle Eastern...
http://www.myndefyre.com/asiaminor/

Read my posts.

That area isn't the middle east. It is considered Asia-Minor. This has been set by people who make maps.

Quote:
research...
I said quite clearly, and any other people living in britain (or I imagine any other EU country) can back me up... this news has dominated the radio, tv and newspapers, I can't link you to a paper that is sitting in my house...
And how unbiased has your radio, tv and newspapers been? Not very unbiased at all. I check out raw figures.

Quote:
both the yes and no votes were about political objectives...
if you can't see that then you should be glad you are still studying politics, it happens that they yes vote was regarding global politics, and the no vote was very localised politics. most people only loko at local politics...
The yes vote was regarding ignorance of the reality, economic factors and their own people. It was all politically motivated. If you don't give a damn about your own people, like you want, you won't get too far.

Quote:
Just to make an analogy on that point... I've lost count of the amount o discussions about britain joinnig the Euro that involve the words Pound great individuality, but fail to mention economic slide, foreign policies or anything else that matters a damn sight more than whose face is on the notes you buy beer with.
You again are being very pompous and you aren't looking at the facts. It appears you already lost this argument.. I discuss the economic side and foreign policies heavily. That's what I study.

Edit: toned down as requested.
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Old 06-01-2005, 07:50 PM   #28
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Default Re: European constitution...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giancarlo
http://www.myndefyre.com/asiaminor/

Read my posts.

That area isn't the middle east. It is considered Asia-Minor. This has been set by people who make maps.
exactly what evidence would be good enough?

I link the website of the turkish embassy and you think you've beaten that with a website of a turkish band?

how exactly does that work?

oh and your independant sources...
well the first source was FT...
which owned by pearsons group, and american based company sponsored by american companies based in america... hardly an unbiased view of european politics there...

--edit cause I've a few more things to add

now the BBC (where the news and TV sources I've wached come from is truely inde[pendant, it has no corperate sponsors and is regulated to ensure impratial news delivery...
as far as I am aware there is nothing else like that in the world...


The band site you linked to as your 'hard evidence' that that turkey is in fact in the asia minor is actually fo a band where the site is reistered in California... a good name for a band does not make geological facts...


and finally my arguments before did take nito account the people in 'my own' country, the fact is that France has ben keen to race ahead with a united Europe since the mid 1940's and that was at aa time when their economy was benefiting from their member neibours stronger economies... now they are getting cold feet about expension into poorer states...

there is a difference between looking after your own and taknig a load of countries for a ride to milk them for as much as you can, without giving anything in reurn...
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Old 06-01-2005, 08:25 PM   #29
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Default Re: European constitution...

Quote:
Originally Posted by root
exactly what evidence would be good enough?

I link the website of the turkish embassy and you think you've beaten that with a website of a turkish band?
Since you are being stubborn... look at this:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=asia+minor

Asia minor or anatolia is NOT PART of the middle east.

Quote:
oh and your independant sources...
well the first source was FT...
which owned by pearsons group, and american based company sponsored by american companies based in america... hardly an unbiased view of european politics there...
This is B.S. FT is a very solid, reliable source. Just because it is american does not mean it is anti-european. You need to accept the fact that not everything you think is right. Good one. Attack my sources, but never provide any of your own. Just claim you heard things on a radio.

Quote:
now the BBC (where the news and TV sources I've wached come from is truely inde[pendant, it has no corperate sponsors and is regulated to ensure impratial news delivery...
as far as I am aware there is nothing else like that in the world...
No it is not. BBC is very biased and was known to be anti-Iraq war. That's a fact. And their viewership is falling too. Also, they are considering to be pro-palestinian. How is that independent? It seems you have your facts mixed up. As far as I'm concerned, BBC is more biased then CNN.

Quote:
The band site you linked to as your 'hard evidence' that that turkey is in fact in the asia minor is actually fo a band where the site is reistered in California... a good name for a band does not make geological facts...
Look up google. I just posted the source, because it is known as Asia Minor. You look very bad for attacking all my sources and never bothering to provide your own. Your hard evidence is non-existent.

Quote:
and finally my arguments before did take nito account the people in 'my own' country, the fact is that France has ben keen to race ahead with a united Europe since the mid 1940's and that was at aa time when their economy was benefiting from their member neibours stronger economies... now they are getting cold feet about expension into poorer states...
you again are stating incorrectly. France no longer wants a united Europe. In fact a united Europe is not a good idea as it promotes economic stagnation. We all knew it.
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Old 06-01-2005, 08:33 PM   #30
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Default Re: European constitution...

for once i actually agree with gain... i think, in this case hes provided good evidence to back himself up...

and i agree with the bbc thing too, they are anti-iraq war, and is bias... im not sure on the bias of CNN, but the bbc is pretty bias...
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