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Old 01-17-2014, 11:00 AM   #1
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Default The Big Bang - Just a fun discussion

First off, Rules:
1. No Religious nuts! I consider myself spiritual, but I'm also open minded so I don't want any "Jesus! That's how!" style comments.
2. Comments should contain either proof (please cite, I want to know), or reason (logical reasoning).
3. Opinions are welcome, but again, please explain the reasoning behind them.

Second off, purpose:
I'm not a scientist and I'm making the below assumptions based only on what I myself have learned from others' research. If you know more, that's what I'm looking for. That and a friendly debate.

Onward!

I watched a show last night that covered the Big Bang Theory, I believe it was "How The Universe Works", Ep.1, "The Big Bang".

In it scientists (and some very well renowned ones) were explaining the beginning moments of the Universe. They described how they came to some of the conclusions, but not others.

I gotta tell you, some of the things they spoke about like they are scientific fact, were absolutely preposterous (IMHO) and don't even pass a smell test! Now, I get the logic behind why we believe that everything started from a big bang, specifically the Universe's expansion.... it only seems reasonable that if everything is headed in an 'outward' direction, it must have come from a point of intense singularity. However, some other things they were stating as fact were a little hard to swallow. Specifically:

When the Big Bang initially happened, most everything happened within a single second. In this second, there was a huge fight between matter and anti-matter where there proved to be more matter than anti-matter. Thus, everything you see around you is the 'left-over' matter from all of it colliding and cancelling each other out.
My Beef: That claim would mean anti-matter was wiped out of existence (if matter came out on top... anti-matter must be gone). So why do we believe it still to exist? Or am I confusing this with dark matter?

During the first few planck units, matter would pop in and out of existence. As the universe expanded and subsequently cooled, matter became for permanent, producing what you see around you. The physical manifestation of energy as stagnant matter.
My Beef: Our ventures into quantum physics have shown that matter still does this, all the time, so that whole thought process is out. We have been able to observe that in the black of space, energy will collide, create matter which breaks down and moves on. Even the matter we see around us that we believe to be very permanent is constantly popping in and out of existence.

Now, I'm no physicist. However, as a being of reason, I would know that even my most internally accurate assumptions of how things worked 14 Billion years ago are still assumptions. I can build a computer generated model to prove my point, but I'm only serving to fulfill my own assumptions based on a model that I created the variables for. Therefore, I'm defining all the variables and running the test over and over until my results match what a bunch of other people like me think happened.
With CERN, it's a fantastic machine, sure. However, colliding energy and then simply watching energy fly apart, while it can explain certain things I myself don't fully understand, it is still (IMHO) a far stretch from knowing how everything we see came into existence.

Now, before anyone says it... Yea, I get that we can't possibly go back in time to the Big Bang and test stuff out and we're left only with these assumptions. However, I think I myself would've been a little more cognizant to the fact that we don't really know in my interview.

So begins the discussion; for any other proponents of the Big Bang Theory, do you agree or disagree with the assumptions made by mainstream scientists? Why/Why not?

Before posting, please see rules!
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Old 01-17-2014, 11:52 AM   #2
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Default Re: The Big Bang - Just a fun discussion

I will say that the only reason I agree with it is because it happens to be the most logical reason.

Scientists are always discovering more and more about the universe so maybe one day someone will work it out but who knows.

I will also say I quite enjoy watching these sort of programs and find them very interesting. Which channel was it on?

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Old 01-17-2014, 12:11 PM   #3
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Default Re: The Big Bang - Just a fun discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mossiac View Post
I will say that the only reason I agree with it is because it happens to be the most logical reason.

Scientists are always discovering more and more about the universe so maybe one day someone will work it out but who knows.

I will also say I quite enjoy watching these sort of programs and find them very interesting. Which channel was it on?

Mossiac

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LOL MOST LOGICAL?? Sorry (caps lock off now). I see the big bang as not possible from the information that I have learned from Documentaries and scientists. They say there was nothing, and suddenly there was a big bang and everything was there. 1: There is no sound in space, so a bang? really? who comes up with that.. 2: Water cannot be compressed. It just can't. You might say, it was just the water vapor. But water vapor still takes up space. You cannot even put 1 glass of water vapor into nothing. Water cannot be reduced or compressed or anything. So where did all the water come from then? The bang that nobody can hear anyways? Was the water supposed to just be floating in space and magically land on earth? Also, 3: in space, there is no combustion. To me, the very fact of God just being there and creating everything is much more realistic. Also because the whole idea of creationism, is faith. The reason for believing god did it all, is to have faith. The reason for believing in the big bang theory is to make the mainstream bullshit spewers happy. These mainstream scientists are contradicting them selves. There are not 3-4-5-6 different truths for the same thing. Either, there is no sound in space, thus meaning there was no bang. There is no way to condense water to the point where it takes 0 space like air, thus meaning earth shouldn't have any water. There is 0 proof the evolution and the big bang. There is also pretty much 0 hard core proof that god is real. But, what we use as proof for us ( messianic's ) is the bible. Most people read it as a story. And it is. The first time you read it. There are some 3-4-5-6 levels of the bible. The first tiem you read it, it's a story. The second time you read it you see some extras. the 3rd time you see the secrets. The 4th time you see meanings.. and so on. Also the bible is actually telling a large part of its "stories spiritually. This might be against the threat rules.. im not sure, but I would like to explain a little bit here. There are so many things in the bible, that are not mean to be physically literal. There are parts where it talks about circumcision. Everybody knows what that is :P. But when you read the bible at lvl 5, you find out, the it actually means circumcision of the spirit. I could write pages on this.. My point is. There is a reason, a real reason to believe in creation. The big bang theory was just put together by a bunch of idiots who contradict themselves about 5 times and just want to give the evolutionists who HAVE to believe something just not creation. Cheers

Oh hey do I count as a nut?

Oh and: When I see something that (like with the sound) just is impossible, and is stated as a fact, then I have to question, how credible is everything else? If I just went ahead and said some random something and everyone here would agree it was 100% not true, would you trust what i'm saying so much anymore? No not really. Now, these evolutionists that make these documentaries on the big bang theory and what not, they will sound very very smart, and it will seem very sense able and makes sense. but they are trying to brain wash us all. Just my point of veiw ;P
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Old 01-17-2014, 12:27 PM   #4
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Default Re: The Big Bang - Just a fun discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mossiac View Post
Which channel was it on?
Discovery Channel, but I watched it on Netflix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Life View Post
Water cannot be compressed. It just can't. You might say, it was just the water vapor. But water vapor still takes up space. You cannot even put 1 glass of water vapor into nothing. Water cannot be reduced or compressed or anything. So where did all the water come from then?
The idea is that everything was energy. While it is true that water (in solid form) cannot be compressed, if its state of existence were transposed to energy, who's to say the limit on how much it can then be compressed?
i.e. If you can get a nuclear blast from a single atom, imagine how much energy can be compressed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Life View Post
3: in space, there is no combustion
Go outside during the day. Look up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Life View Post
Oh hey do I count as a nut?
Uhh well kinda.

Here's why: In your post, you explain how the bible should not be taken literally, yet you yourself took the term "bang" literally to disprove someone else's view of how things happened.
"Don't take my beliefs literally or they fall apart, but yours fall apart if you take them literally"

See the flaw there?

Also, if you do believe in God, did he personally tell you that there was no big bang? Realistically, the big bang theory doesn't have to exist in place of God, it can exist in the same context.
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Old 01-17-2014, 12:28 PM   #5
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Default Re: The Big Bang - Just a fun discussion

I also happened to watch a show last night about the Big Bang Theory:





Ok, I couldn't help it sorry. But for what it's worth, I can't even begin to comprehend any thought of what the big bang would have been like with my little brain and thinking about matter and anit-matter and how they cancel each other out and how matter can appear and disappear just give me a headache.
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Old 01-17-2014, 12:37 PM   #6
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Default Re: The Big Bang - Just a fun discussion

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But for what it's worth, I can't even begin to comprehend any thought of what the big bang would have been like with my little brain and thinking about matter and anit-matter and how they cancel each other out and how matter can appear and disappear just give me a headache.
Bingo.

That's kind of my point. How can we state that these events factually happened. I get that it's theory (not law), but I would classify it as the big bang hypothesis. There's just so many assumptions that are made to make the model work.
It's a great theory, sure. But to try and explain these events as factual when 90% are assumptions is overly bold. I imagine that video will be watched in XX years and laughed at. Or marveled over, who knows.
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Old 01-17-2014, 02:39 PM   #7
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Default Re: The Big Bang - Just a fun discussion

One question that baffles me over and over again.

If space is expanding... what is it expanding into? Why was there space in the first place to expand this expanding universe? Is there an end?

I can't get my own mind around this thought. It seems odd for me to comptemplate that space exists and goes on forever (with nothing around). We are all taught to believe that nothing is infinite. Everything is finite.

It is far too easy to go "god created everything".
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Old 01-17-2014, 02:43 PM   #8
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Closed.
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Old 01-18-2014, 01:17 PM   #9
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Default Re: The Big Bang - Just a fun discussion

Right...

Lets try again.

Personally I don't like putting rules on threads. but I can see how and why rules may have been needed on this thread.


So lets make the rule very simple and the consequence for breaking the rules also simillarly simple.

we are discussing the scientific explanation for the creation of the universe. feel free to question the science.
any who says God did it gets banned for a week.



I've cleaned up the thread by deleting entire posts, anything that I may have deleted that the authour thinks is essentially relevant to the conversation (within the limits of the rules of this discussion) feel free to put back.



Quote:
When the Big Bang initially happened, most everything happened within a single second. In this second, there was a huge fight between matter and anti-matter where there proved to be more matter than anti-matter. Thus, everything you see around you is the 'left-over' matter from all of it colliding and cancelling each other out.
My Beef: That claim would mean anti-matter was wiped out of existence (if matter came out on top... anti-matter must be gone). So why do we believe it still to exist? Or am I confusing this with dark matter?
only the matter and anti matter that collided would be wiped out.
consider a break in pool, all the balls on the table go in all directions.
after the break take away pairs of spots and stripes (yellows and reds if you're british) that touched.

You'll undoubtably be left with some matter and some anti matter left.

Quote:
During the first few planck units, matter would pop in and out of existence. As the universe expanded and subsequently cooled, matter became for permanent, producing what you see around you. The physical manifestation of energy as stagnant matter.
My Beef: Our ventures into quantum physics have shown that matter still does this, all the time, so that whole thought process is out. We have been able to observe that in the black of space, energy will collide, create matter which breaks down and moves on. Even the matter we see around us that we believe to be very permanent is constantly popping in and out of existence.
it's not that this no longer happens, it's that with less energy concerntration this is harder, - i.e in the first few seconds of the universe all matter and all energy inside the universe is concerntraited into a small space, as the energy spreads out it's concerntration is less.

Quote:
1: There is no sound in space, so a bang? really? who comes up with that.
sound is definied as vibration through matter, considering tat at the start of the universe all matter was hugely compressed it would have surely been able to carry vibration.
there is sound in space, but there is a distinct lack of substance for the vibrations to travel through, the reason that space is empty is that the matter is spread out all over the place...

or to put it another way, space wasn't always as it is now.
the bing bang is just an expression, (and says nothing about sound) but I see no reason that there couldn't have been sound even if no person was there to percieve it.

Quote:
2: Water cannot be compressed. It just can't. You might say, it was just the water vapor. But water vapor still takes up space. You cannot even put 1 glass of water vapor into nothing. Water cannot be reduced or compressed or anything. So where did all the water come from then? The bang that nobody can hear anyways? Was the water supposed to just be floating in space and magically land on earth?
nobody said that water could be compressed, however, in the vacum of space there is no liquid water.
if you look for a video on you tube by ben kernow (I think that's how you spell his name) he explains how to make astronaught ice cream (freeze dried ice cream) this uses a vacum to move water directly rfom a solidy to a gas, in an environment in which water cannot exist as a liquid, (google for tripple point of water)

Quote:
3: in space, there is no combustion.
combustion is a very specific term. it is not relevent to the big bang.
so whilst what you've said there is true, combustion (as in rapid oxidisation) cannot occur in space, that's different from rapid expansion.

Quote:
These mainstream scientists are contradicting them selves.
That is exactly the point of science though, one person develops a theory, which remains a theory until it is either proven or disproven.
there are a few different theories that have been either proven or disproven, given that we can't go back in time and see exactly what caused the start of the universe all we have is theories.
Where two different people have two different theories they often will contradict each other.

Quote:
Was the water supposed to just be floating in space and magically land on earth?
no, water wasn't supposed to be just floating in space (especially not as a liquid)

but the same as we can see rocks floating in space why can't ice float in space, there is nothing particularly special about water, it's just a molecule made of some atoms.

we can make water, and infact do make water every time we drive our cars, (hydro carbon fuel plus oxygen from air, plus explosion does result in water (albeit vapour) as a waste product)

we also can see that atoms can be formed in many different ways, not only has man developed the ability to actually split the atom taking on item and splitting it on an atomic level into different atoms. but we've also been able to take one substance and make another.
-we know that intense radiation can (and has) stripped protons and electrons from lead to form gold in the radiation containment device used to contain the reactors at Chernobyl...


The point is our understanding broadens on a practically daily basis.
but the "big bang", or start of the universe will likely never be proven beyond doubt
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Originally Posted by ipwn
Quote:
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3: in space, there is no combustion
Go outside during the day. Look up.
that is not combustion, that is nuclear fusion.
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Old 01-18-2014, 02:17 PM   #10
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Indeed jmacavali that escalated very quickly.

Isn't sound only defined as an end point to "hear" it. I.e. ears.

I highly doubt we will ever know how it all started but one thing I have wondered, if we keep trying to and succeed in working out how it was done, wouldn't we end up creating another universe? Then how do we deal with that?

I know it's not likely to happen but thoughts are thoughts.

Sorry for the long winded and probably difficult to understand question.

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