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Old 12-18-2012, 08:20 AM   #71
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Default Re: Another school shooting

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Originally Posted by MMM View Post
I have owned guns responsibly for 40 years, why should I have them taken off me because some nutter who should not have had access to guns killed innocent people.... why should I be penalized for that.


Lets ban cars as they kill more people than any thing else, lets ban booze because people can get violent. lets ban other things because it is good to ban.
OK do you want a real answer to point 1?
And as a responsible person really think about this, why should you have your guns taken off of you? What if I told you the answer was to save the life of a child?

Yes I agree that it is sad that the actions of a few people can spoil it for others but if the overall outcome is saving the lives of other people then it is a small sacrifice.

In regards to your second point, as somebody else mentioned, guns are meant to kill, you can argue they are meant to defend yourself but defend how? By shooting someone . . . . therefore to kill.
Cars are meant to transport people.

You can't compare those things.

** P.S Guys can I just say that I'm glad we are having this discussion, of course we all have very strong views on this as we should but I think so far all of the views and posts have been very mature and well handled, Good Job!
Let's keep the discussion going with the same respect.
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:27 AM   #72
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Default Re: Another school shooting

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Also why is making it illegal to own a gun "punishing law abiding citizens"?
I fail to see this as a punishment?

What happens when you are told you are not allowed to own a gun? You break down in tears? Feel like a family member has been lost? What? What is so great of a punishment that it is not worth giving up your right to own a gun to save the lives of thousands?
So you're telling me that having a hobby, and something you love being made illegal because of a nutcase wouldn't be a punishment to people like me who have never fired at a single human and hope to never have to? What if computers were made illegal for home use as a response to hacking and you were forced to turn in all of your computers? Exact same concept.

It's not worth giving up my right to defend myself. There are crazy people in this world who are out to do me or anyone else who looks at them wrong with everything from a baseball bat, to a car, to a gun. I have the right to defend myself, and I should not need to get close enough to use my hands. If you can prove that it would save "thousands of lives" because the crimes simply wouldn't happen and that none of them would just turn to bombs, knives or blunt objects I'd love to see that. The simple fact is, there would not be any noticeable dip in homicides or violet crime by taking away guns: criminals always find tools to harm and kill the innocent.

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Surely you (not directly you) but someone on here or I'd like to think any American citizen that owns a gun would give up his gun in an instant if that was directly related to saving the life of even in a single child?
But then how would I save my own child's life from a threat? Taking away my guns could directly take away my future child's life because I had no way to defend them.

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I'm still not saying that everyone will hand them in of course they won't BUT I just cannot comprehend letting civilian people hand guns. It completely confuses me.

I just think the average person may have days of rage or anger where ordinarily he could punch someone or as you say stab someone, and i'm not saying this is right but it's better than being shot. You annoy someone with a gun that isn't in the right mental position and it's asking for trouble.
Why does it confuse you that we want to be able to defend ourselves and make it home every night? That is exactly why I carry every day. Incidents like the one I linked are just one example of how law abiding citizens can prevent further bodily harm with the proper use of a firearm. While I hope to never be in that guy's shoes I want the ability to make sure I go home at night.

The annoying someone with a gun part is just off base. The same argument was used to try and prevent concealed carry in Wisconsin. They also said that there would be shootouts in the streets every day. However there are only stories of people with concealed carry protecting themselves (as I linked) or people around them. Never once has a CCW permit holder mis-used their weapon. Those of us who do it legally have the right so ingrained into our lives that we will not do anything that jepordizes our right to ever touch a weapon again. Go ahead, piss me off while I'm walking in a store or a parking lot while carrying my gun. I, and every other non-criminal I know, won't draw. Why? 1, you're not a threat. 2, because you're not a threat that could be considered assault with a deadly weapon which means jail time and we could never shoot again. It's not worth it for the law abiding to do something stupid.
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:32 AM   #73
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Default Re: Another school shooting

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In regards to your second point, as somebody else mentioned, guns are meant to kill, you can argue they are meant to defend yourself but defend how? By shooting someone . . . . therefore to kill.
Cars are meant to transport people.

You can't compare those things.
Defending myself with a knife could also kill. Anytime you defend yourself there is the option of death. HOWEVER, the point of defense isn't to kill, it's to neutralize the threat. First thing any good self-defense law class will teach you in the states is to only shoot to stop, not to kill. That's what makes us different. A criminal would walk over me while I'm on the ground and put in a few more rounds. I would call the cops after that point and tell them to bring an ambulance (or else I would go to jail).

Cars can transport people, but they are not a necessity. You can walk, bike, scooter (motorized or the kiddie kind), roller-blade and well you get the idea. So if like losing the right to defend my self with a gun, if I would be inconvenienced but would still have other ways to get around.
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:34 AM   #74
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Default Re: Another school shooting

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** P.S Guys can I just say that I'm glad we are having this discussion, of course we all have very strong views on this as we should but I think so far all of the views and posts have been very mature and well handled, Good Job!
Let's keep the discussion going with the same respect.
Agreed on this part. That'll make it easier to get on while working to make counter-points
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:39 AM   #75
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Default Re: Another school shooting

Nothing will change because there isn't really a middle ground and until the two sides can find a middle ground there isn't a solution.

I think also missed on this thread is the fact that this kid suffered from some serious mental illness. He was unstable. If you are a believer in having guns, what would you do if you had a son or daughter in the house that was suffering form mental illness like this boy was? Would you re-think having them? Would you teach him to use them properly like his mother did, knowing he was mentally ill?

Lets also not forget that the whole reason that we are having this discussion in the first place is because 20 5 & 6 year old kindergarten kids were killed.
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:39 AM   #76
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Default Re: Another school shooting

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Originally Posted by celegorm View Post
So you're telling me that having a hobby, and something you love being made illegal because of a nutcase wouldn't be a punishment to people like me who have never fired at a single human and hope to never have to? What if computers were made illegal for home use as a response to hacking and you were forced to turn in all of your computers? Exact same concept.

It's not worth giving up my right to defend myself. There are crazy people in this world who are out to do me or anyone else who looks at them wrong with everything from a baseball bat, to a car, to a gun. I have the right to defend myself, and I should not need to get close enough to use my hands. If you can prove that it would save "thousands of lives" because the crimes simply wouldn't happen and that none of them would just turn to bombs, knives or blunt objects I'd love to see that. The simple fact is, there would not be any noticeable dip in homicides or violet crime by taking away guns: criminals always find tools to harm and kill the innocent.

But then how would I save my own child's life from a threat? Taking away my guns could directly take away my future child's life because I had no way to defend them.



Why does it confuse you that we want to be able to defend ourselves and make it home every night? That is exactly why I carry every day. Incidents like the one I linked are just one example of how law abiding citizens can prevent further bodily harm with the proper use of a firearm. While I hope to never be in that guy's shoes I want the ability to make sure I go home at night.

The annoying someone with a gun part is just off base. The same argument was used to try and prevent concealed carry in Wisconsin. They also said that there would be shootouts in the streets every day. However there are only stories of people with concealed carry protecting themselves (as I linked) or people around them. Never once has a CCW permit holder mis-used their weapon. Those of us who do it legally have the right so ingrained into our lives that we will not do anything that jepordizes our right to ever touch a weapon again. Go ahead, piss me off while I'm walking in a store or a parking lot while carrying my gun. I, and every other non-criminal I know, won't draw. Why? 1, you're not a threat. 2, because you're not a threat that could be considered assault with a deadly weapon which means jail time and we could never shoot again. It's not worth it for the law abiding to do something stupid.
How many children's or even people's lives do you think have been saved by a gun vs how many have been taken by a gun?
Would you change your mind and please forgive me for saying this and I wish no harm on you or your family but please think about if your child was on the other end of this argument? What if something had happened to your child because someone had got hold of a gun, that maybe wasn't even theirs maybe their parents. But due to relaxed gun laws the person could still get hold of a gun as it was easily accessible?

Also my point in regards to irritating or upsetting someone did state that someone wasn't in the correct mental state of mind, so sure you can reason with yourself with your points that i'm not a threat but someone who is not mentally stable can't reason in the same fashion.

Also I didn't mean it as literally as stealing someone's parking space or bumping into them as you walk past, what about weeks or months of bullying someone? Sure the person doing the bullying is a nasty piece of work and deserves a good hard punch but do they deserve to lose their life?
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:44 AM   #77
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Default Re: Another school shooting

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Originally Posted by celegorm View Post
Defending myself with a knife could also kill. Anytime you defend yourself there is the option of death. HOWEVER, the point of defense isn't to kill, it's to neutralize the threat. First thing any good self-defense law class will teach you in the states is to only shoot to stop, not to kill. That's what makes us different. A criminal would walk over me while I'm on the ground and put in a few more rounds. I would call the cops after that point and tell them to bring an ambulance (or else I would go to jail).

Cars can transport people, but they are not a necessity. You can walk, bike, scooter (motorized or the kiddie kind), roller-blade and well you get the idea. So if like losing the right to defend my self with a gun, if I would be inconvenienced but would still have other ways to get around.
How many of these gun owners do you think have been to self defence classes?

I'm still not sure on the comparison between a gun and a car.
A car is like a pencil, (in a weird way) it has a purpose which it is designed for which is writing (or transporting) however both can be used to inflict harm and kill people.
A gun is designed to kill people, that IS it's design. Not self defence, yes you CAN use a gun for self defence but that is not it's design.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:05 AM   #78
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Default Re: Another school shooting

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How many children's or even people's lives do you think have been saved by a gun vs how many have been taken by a gun?
Would you change your mind and please forgive me for saying this and I wish no harm on you or your family but please think about if your child was on the other end of this argument? What if something had happened to your child because someone had got hold of a gun, that maybe wasn't even theirs maybe their parents. But due to relaxed gun laws the person could still get hold of a gun as it was easily accessible?
That would suck, but I'd also realize that the gun wasn't at fault. I'd know that if the person wanted to, they could do the same thing with other objects.

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How many of these gun owners do you think have been to self defence classes?

I'm still not sure on the comparison between a gun and a car.
A car is like a pencil, (in a weird way) it has a purpose which it is designed for which is writing (or transporting) however both can be used to inflict harm and kill people.
A gun is designed to kill people, that IS it's design. Not self defence, yes you CAN use a gun for self defence but that is not it's design.
People who do stuff like this? Considering they are criminals probably none, but that was my point in what separates "us" from "them".

I'd still say the gun designed was to defend and that it's just crazy people who pick them up and use them to kill for something that isn't food (want to make sure I seperate hunting from that statement). For you and I, that might be like apple vs. PC.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:15 AM   #79
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Default Re: Another school shooting

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That would suck, but I'd also realize that the gun wasn't at fault. I'd know that if the person wanted to, they could do the same thing with other objects.



People who do stuff like this? Considering they are criminals probably none, but that was my point in what separates "us" from "them".

I'd still say the gun designed was to defend and that it's just crazy people who pick them up and use them to kill for something that isn't food (want to make sure I seperate hunting from that statement). For you and I, that might be like apple vs. PC.
I think so, I think you're trying to convert me to Christianity and i'm trying to convert you to Buddhism or atleast trying to tell each other why our religion is correct and the other is wrong.

Still I feel some interesting posts made for each side of the argument.

I feel we are circling around the same points now so I think it may be time to end my part in this discussion.

It was nice talking with you guys on this matter.

My thoughts are with the friend and families of those people who unfortunately are no longer with us today. Not just in this incident and not just for victims of gun crimes, I feel very reflective at the moment and my thoughts are with all those who have had someone taken from their life before it was their time.

Rest In Peace
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:51 AM   #80
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Default Re: Another school shooting

I live in a town where there are twice as many guns as people probably, just like any northern WI town. Some of my friend's own 4-5 guns, including an AR-15. I also live on one of the safest campuses in the country.
I'm not sure why there are so many people in this country that insist we take guns away from the innocent, and basically give them to the criminals. They don't just disappear...

The average number of deaths when a murder spree is stopped by police is just above 14. It's 2.33 when the spree is stopped by a civilian.
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