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Old 04-16-2007, 04:34 AM   #21
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Default Re: A10 pilot flying again in Iraq

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Originally Posted by rudster816 View Post
OK im cooled off now
just lock it EVERYONE knows that this is just going to cause problems
I don't think so, let a few more fall on their swords first.
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Old 04-16-2007, 04:36 AM   #22
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Default Re: A10 pilot flying again in Iraq

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Originally Posted by Steff View Post
LOL, nice thread to look at first thing on a morning how has everyone been on a posative note?
You are joking, I presume??, read the latest!
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Old 04-16-2007, 04:47 AM   #23
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Default Re: A10 pilot flying again in Iraq

I havent been on for a week or more Still them shooting down one of our men Yes everyone makes mistakes... but killing some one is abit mhmmmmmm.....
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Old 04-16-2007, 05:29 AM   #24
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Default Re: A10 pilot flying again in Iraq

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I havent been on for a week or more Still them shooting down one of our men Yes everyone makes mistakes... but killing some one is abit mhmmmmmm.....
So true Steff, sadly so true, what's the weather like where you are??, here on the Isle of Wight it's stunning! wall to wall sunshine, 24c - 26c!
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Old 04-16-2007, 06:11 AM   #25
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Default Re: A10 pilot flying again in Iraq

Just to clear things up here.

as I understand it, the pilot in question is clearly heard on his radio, (which was played on British news and TV) being told that there were allies in the region and that he should not move onto a new target after he'd finished his present target.

he disobeyed that order (thinking he knew best?)

and the next target that he took was a clearly marked, (orange tagged) allied vehicle.

that's not just an accident, that's disobeying orders and being neglectful.

anyway, that aside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rudster816 View Post
ya i pretty sure that deputy whoever was a brit wasnt he and i bet he has never flown before i wish people like him would keep feeding the public that kind of bull shit "unlawfuly" killed my butt and was a terrible accident but the piliot shouldnt be held accountable. im sure the guilt alone is enough punishmentb
'deputy whatever' he is hasn't flown before, he's a coroner, how many of your coroners in America have seen combat experience?

besides, which assuming you can be bothered to read the news, (if it's even reported on the news) that decision was only reached after people (american), (presumably on the original military tribunal) leaked reports and recordings as they disagreed with the original rullings, these are the reports that include the messages of them being told not to change targets, recordings of the two pilots targeting the allied vehicles, recordings where they are told that they have just killed their 'friends'.
this evidence was 'classified' by the original tribunal presumably to get the pilot who disobeyed orders and therefore unlawfully killed someone 'off the hook'



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Originally Posted by setishock View Post
And what if it was a brit at the stick? Would you be screeming so loudly? I would venture not.
Me, I venture to say that yes i would, you shouldn't let people like that back in the field, when people are out there it's bad enough to have to worry about what's in front of you, without having to worry about recieving a bullet in your back from some idiot who can't understand the instruction that he should stay put and not move onto the next target.
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Originally Posted by setishock View Post
Modern pilots rely on information fed to them either by voice radio or closed data link. Garbage in, garbage out. That means if the pilot was fed bad intel then it stands to reason that a mistake could be made. Granted he pulled the trigger but he was going on what he thought to be accurate information. Pilots are not gods. They're not perfect. Granted they are held to a higher standard, but they're people just the same.
Completly agree, but as I understand it this isn't what actually happen, it's not a GIGO situation here, he was fed good information and chose to ignore it
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Originally Posted by setishock View Post
If you want to have some one to blame then blame the british command for either not knowing where they were or not passing the info on to the aircraft controllers for them to pass on to the pilots.
Ummm, how about we actually congratulate both british and american command for knowing exactly where their troups were and also sucsesfully relaying that information to the pilots, and we congratulate the pilots for ignoring those instructions and killing people anyway.
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Originally Posted by setishock View Post
This is imflamatory>>>
Last Updated: Sunday, 15 April 2007, 14:46 GMT 15:46 UK
Friendly fire pilot back in Iraq
L/Cpl Matty Hull died four years ago in the attack in Basra
A US pilot involved in the friendly fire killing of a UK soldier is returning to fight in Iraq next month, it has emerged.
Lance Corporal of Horse Matty Hull, 25, of Windsor, Berkshire, died when his Scimitar tank came under fire from a US A-10 "Tank Buster" plane in March 2003.

One of two pilots involved in the incident is now being deployed in Iraq as part of the Idaho Air Guard.

A spokesman said he was deployed due to his "extensive combat experience".

'Unlawfully killed'

Air Guard spokesman 1st Lt Tony Vincelli said the pilot's squadron would focus on providing close air support for ground troops, but for security reasons the exact location of the deployment would not be made public.

The other pilot involved in the "blue on blue" attack on British scimitar armoured vehicles near Basra has since retired.

At an inquest earlier this year, Oxfordshire Assistant Deputy Coroner Andrew Walker concluded L/Cp Hull was unlawfully killed.

He told Oxford Coroners' Court L/Cp Hull's death had been "an entirely avoidable tragedy" and that the US fighter pilots' attack on the British convoy of four vehicles near Basra "amounted to an assault" and was criminal.

The US military has not released the names of the A-10 pilots, who were cleared of wrongdoing by the military.
that's not inflammatory, (go here and find out what words mean before you use them), that's a synopsis of a legal report, besides which, it's in everyones right to questions a closed military inquest, I mean since none of us are living in communist Russia or Nazi Germany).

Quote:
Originally Posted by setishock View Post
And who the f**k is this bozo?
At an inquest earlier this year, Oxfordshire Assistant Deputy Coroner Andrew Walker concluded L/Cp Hull was unlawfully killed.
Must be an election year over there...
that bozo is a legally appointed coroner (as it said in the report).
I find it funny that as soon as someone questions your country all you yanks get so mad that you can't read anymore. (i mean it did say in the news story that you copied that he was the coroner).
British politics and American politics work very differently, I find the funny thing with American politics is that the public are so easily mislead, and elections are popularity contests, rather than political debates. whilst british politics is more about politics and policy, but the polititians seem to just lie a lot more.
either way, election year or not, he's a coroner, nobody votes for him. (duh)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rudster816 View Post
do you guys need to be so harsh damn the guy is a human he makes mistake. its funny how all the british people here think he shouldnt return. just FYI US would kick your guys ass anyday HANDS DOWN. you guys should feel LUCKY were helping you. you guys have like what 4000 troops there. thats almost NOTHING compared to our 121000. quit putting our people down just because one of our piliots made a mistake. im pretty freakin sure a british piliot has killed an American by accident.
Yeah, I feel fucking real lucky to know that one of your badly trained trigger happy yobs might be putting a bullet in the back of the mates that I have currently serving out there, FYI, we're helping you, you're not helping us. we helped you invade Afghanistan after 9/11 and we helped you shift the focus of a war that you couldn't win by helping you to invade Iraq,
(I'm not entirely sure how long your memories actually last for but it is ridiculously short term!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by celegorm View Post
I see this as a good thing. I still feel that it wasn't entirely the piolts fault for the FF. Yes, he is still somewhat responsible (he pulled the trigger after all), but he was only going off of what his CO told him. "No friendlies that far north."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6453365.stm

Quote:
The inquest into L/Cpl Hull's death has already been told how the ground controller, codenamed Manilla Hotel, was "gobsmacked" that one of two A10 "tank buster" planes under his control had attacked a British armoured vehicles convoy instead of their intended target.

Manilla Hotel had given no permission to open fire on this target, British Forward Air Controller Stuart Matthews told Oxfordshire Assistant Deputy Coroner Andrew Walker.
and the worst bit about all of this...

Quote:
Earlier, the coroner offered his deepest sympathies to L/Cpl Hull's family and said: "Nothing he could ever say would be enough to comfort them in their grief."

Their suffering had been made far worse by the treatment they received, he said.

"They have had to wait far too long for this inquest to be heard and for this I apologise.

"They, despite request after request, have been, as this court has been, denied access to evidence that would provide the fullest explanation to help understand the sequence of events that led to an caused the tragic loss of Lance Corporal Hull's life."

He had to reach a conclusion without the "full facts" before him, he said.

"I find the decision of the US authorities not to allow the relevant US personnel to attend to give evidence or themselves provide full transcripts of the questions they were asked as part of the US FFIB hard to understand."

He added: "I make it clear that I believe that the full facts have not as yet come to light and I can only base my conclusion on the evidence that I have before me."

He said he hoped this would not remain the US's position because it "was a great disservice for those who have lost their lives in the service of their country".
Yes, the pilots, who disobeyed orders and killed someone did get a hell of a lot of support from their government didn't they.

anyway. try finding out the full facts first...

1, the pilots were told not to fire on the convoy
2, everybody knew where the convoy was
3, they shouldn't have been pulling the trigger on anyone.
4, someone died as a result of this neglect
5, it is a terrible accident
6, but it's also an unlawful killing, which deserves punishment, not your same old job to be returned to you after you've already fucked up in such spectacular style.

anyway, lets have a little less blind patriotism, and a little more looking at the facts and having a normal conversation?
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Old 04-16-2007, 06:27 AM   #26
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Default Re: A10 pilot flying again in Iraq

Quote:
Originally Posted by root View Post
Just to clear things up here.

as I understand it, the pilot in question is clearly heard on his radio, (which was played on British news and TV) being told that there were allies in the region and that he should not move onto a new target after he'd finished his present target.

he disobeyed that order (thinking he knew best?)

and the next target that he took was a clearly marked, (orange tagged) allied vehicle.

that's not just an accident, that's disobeying orders and being neglectful.

anyway, that aside.

QUOTE=rudster816;609104]ya i pretty sure that deputy whoever was a brit wasnt he and i bet he has never flown before i wish people like him would keep feeding the public that kind of bull shit "unlawfuly" killed my butt and was a terrible accident but the piliot shouldnt be held accountable. im sure the guilt alone is enough punishmentb
'deputy whatever' he is hasn't flown before, he's a coroner, how many of your coroners in America have seen combat experience?

besides, which assuming you can be bothered to read the news, (if it's even reported on the news) that decision was only reached after people (american), (presumably on the original military tribunal) leaked reports and recordings as they disagreed with the original rullings, these are the reports that include the messages of them being told not to change targets, recordings of the two pilots targeting the allied vehicles, recordings where they are told that they have just killed their 'friends'.
this evidence was 'classified' by the original tribunal presumably to get the pilot who disobeyed orders and therefore unlawfully killed someone 'off the hook'



Me, I venture to say that yes i would, you shouldn't let people like that back in the field, when people are out there it's bad enough to have to worry about what's in front of you, without having to worry about recieving a bullet in your back from some idiot who can't understand the instruction that he should stay put and not move onto the next target.

Completly agree, but as I understand it this isn't what actually happen, it's not a GIGO situation here, he was fed good information and chose to ignore it
Ummm, how about we actually congratulate both british and american command for knowing exactly where their troups were and also sucsesfully relaying that information to the pilots, and we congratulate the pilots for ignoring those instructions and killing people anyway.
that's not inflammatory, (go here and find out what words mean before you use them), that's a synopsis of a legal report, besides which, it's in everyones right to questions a closed military inquest, I mean since none of us are living in communist Russia or Nazi Germany).


that bozo is a legally appointed coroner (as it said in the report).
I find it funny that as soon as someone questions your country all you yanks get so mad that you can't read anymore. (i mean it did say in the news story that you copied that he was the coroner).
British politics and American politics work very differently, I find the funny thing with American politics is that the public are so easily mislead, and elections are popularity contests, rather than political debates. whilst british politics is more about politics and policy, but the polititians seem to just lie a lot more.
either way, election year or not, he's a coroner, nobody votes for him. (duh)
Yeah, I feel fucking real lucky to know that one of your badly trained trigger happy yobs might be putting a bullet in the back of the mates that I have currently serving out there, FYI, we're helping you, you're not helping us. we helped you invade Afghanistan after 9/11 and we helped you shift the focus of a war that you couldn't win by helping you to invade Iraq,
(I'm not entirely sure how long your memories actually last for but it is ridiculously short term!)


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6453365.stm



and the worst bit about all of this...



Yes, the pilots, who disobeyed orders and killed someone did get a hell of a lot of support from their government didn't they.

anyway. try finding out the full facts first...

1, the pilots were told not to fire on the convoy
2, everybody knew where the convoy was
3, they shouldn't have been pulling the trigger on anyone.
4, someone died as a result of this neglect
5, it is a terrible accident
6, but it's also an unlawful killing, which deserves punishment, not your same old job to be returned to you after you've already fucked up in such spectacular style.

anyway, lets have a little less blind patriotism, and a little more looking at the facts and having a normal conversation?[/QUOTE]A real good balanced post from you, as per usual , I'm so glad I started this thread now, I wasn't sure at first that I'd done the right thing, but now, due to your post, I know I was right to, thank you!
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Old 04-16-2007, 06:38 AM   #27
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Default Re: A10 pilot flying again in Iraq

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Originally Posted by Brookfield View Post
So true Steff, sadly so true, what's the weather like where you are??, here on the Isle of Wight it's stunning! wall to wall sunshine, 24c - 26c!
Ahh its not to bad here, not so nice today!

Still, if I went out and ran a man over it would get classed as man slaughter right? even though it was an accsident
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Old 04-16-2007, 06:40 AM   #28
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Default Re: A10 pilot flying again in Iraq

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Originally Posted by root
as I understand it, the pilot in question is clearly heard on his radio, (which was played on British news and TV) being told that there were allies in the region and that he should not move onto a new target after he'd finished his present target.
I've seen the in-cockpit camera complete with audio. he was told no friendlies in the area.... Otherwise i can see where you're comming from.
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:09 AM   #29
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Default Re: A10 pilot flying again in Iraq

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I've seen the in-cockpit camera complete with audio.
if yuo don't mind me asking...

since the video is still classified and not even allowed to be played in full in an open court room...

how exactly have you seen the full video complete with sound?
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:19 AM   #30
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Default Re: A10 pilot flying again in Iraq

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Originally Posted by rudster816 View Post
OK im cooled off now
just lock it EVERYONE knows that this is just going to cause problems
Yeah me too. And that's all you're gonna get out of me.
And please don't take shots at how long my memory lasts.
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