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Old 01-31-2011, 01:20 PM   #1
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Default Setting up a new building with Wireless

Hey, my boss bought a bunch of stuff and he wants me to set it up. Right now, our company is housed in one building. He wants to expand to another building roughly 100ft away from this one.. across a parking lot. He wants to set it up so it's all wireless, so he went ahead and bought all the wireless stuff. I don't know what I'm doing with it... I plan on doing more research on all of this stuff after work.. but I just wanted to know what you guys think I should do with all of it :P

• Cisco Air AP1142N access point
Cisco Aironet 1140 Series Access Point * [Cisco Aironet 1140 Series] - Cisco Systems
• 2 x Cisco Air BR1310G
Cisco Aironet 1300 Series Outdoor Access Point/Bridge* [Cisco Aironet 1300 Series] - Cisco Systems
• 2 x boxes with the Mountings for the Bridges and really really long coax cables for both.
• A five port Cisco switch
• A bunch of wireless cards.


The links may not be the exact product, I gave you the model number above. That's just what they look like...

I guess I would be setting up a bridge in the Main building and a bridge in the second building... With the access point inside the second one? Or would we even need an access point...

------------------
He said he wants to get "This side" up and running by the end of this week. I guess that means he wants a bridge set up on this end and supplying a wireless signal to the computers in the main building.
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Old 02-01-2011, 02:07 PM   #2
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Default Re: Setting up a new building with Wireless

you'd probably be safe going with a 'generic' star topology here.



the wireless clients joined to the domain (if you have one). a VPN could be set up (using DirectAccess and SSTP/IKEv2 if you have Win7) to the other building, essentially having a virtual WAN.

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Old 02-01-2011, 04:38 PM   #3
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Default Re: Setting up a new building with Wireless

Eh, I can't see the pictures but I know what the top one is supposed to be. Yes, lol, we're on a domain. We plan on sticking one bridge right outside this building and the other one right outside the otherone. The wireless signal won't go through cinder block.. and that's what the outside walls are. We're going to have to drill a hole through it to run the cable (Coax). I'm not exactly sure how he plans on getting the wireless signal inside the buildings though... he has one repeater. The bridges just have two Coax ports on it.. not sure what to do with them or where to connect them :P And that one repeater he got... I don't know where he wants to plug that in because, again, those bridges are Coax :P Unless there's some sort of converter...
I'm going to look up DirectAccess and SSTP/IKEv2, never heard of that stuff. Sounds interesting!

Over all I guess I just thought I was getting into something big, but like I said above.. hang a bridge outside building one, hang one outside building two...

My question is how do I get the signal inside? Because of the cinder block...
What do I connect the Coax cable to?
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:06 PM   #4
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Default Re: Setting up a new building with Wireless

Coax cables (usually) use BNC connectors (singular pin inside a round connector). I've never used a Coax cable besides when it's coming from an ISP, in which case it goes into the modem. It might be the same here but im not sure. I might just be a simpleton but i'd use JUST UTP or JUST Fiber for the networking tbh, it gets compliacated when you start mixing connectors and cables. Unless you have a router or a switch where the input is a Coax (RG-8 etc.) using a BNC and has RJ-45 outputs.
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Old 02-02-2011, 08:29 AM   #5
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Default Re: Setting up a new building with Wireless

Ok that's what I was thinking... I'm going to go look back there and see if any of our modems have a BNC connector on it... we certainly don't have anything new with that. The two bridges only use BNC, so I don't know what we're going to use in the second building ><

Thanks
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Old 02-02-2011, 10:07 AM   #6
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Default Re: Setting up a new building with Wireless

if I read you correctly, he wants something like this


Internet - main office - wireless access point (1)---->>>>>carpark>>>> ----wire less access point (2)-- second building (wireless)

in this case wireless access point 1 serves wireless for the main office, and wireless access point 2 is acting as a repeater, picking up the wireless signal from office 1 and boosting and repeating it throughout office 2?

it's not a great idea, basically it'll lead to dog slow network acecss for office 2.

the reason for this is that over the distance of 100ft the signal isn't going to be too strong (hence the access speed will be slow).
and in repeater mode the WAP has to listen, to traffic, and then re-transmit that traffic to a second point.


I fear that what he actually wants is a true wireless bridge

for that you need


internet - office 1 - WAP(1) - WAP (2) >>>>>>>>>carpark>>>> WAP(3) - WAP 4 office 2

in this case what happens is your office network is wired in office 1.
this wired network is made wireless in office 1 by WAP 1
you then use WAP 2 (which is connectted by a cable to the network) as the base point in your wireless bridge to transmit a wireless signal accross the carpark to WAP 3 both of these act in WDS mode to create a wireless bridge.

you then use WAP 4 (which is connectted by a cable to WAP3) to serve the wireless signal to the rest of the office.

It might be that you could do away with WAP 1 and WAP 4 if the equipment that yoy've got effectivly has two WAPs built into it (that just appear as one unit). (but logically what I've written above will still be happening, it's just the two WAPs are contained in a single box.


the screw connectors on the bottom are F connectors, if you have cable TV it's the same kind of connector, the reason that they are there is that the bridge units that you've got are designed to go outdoors, and these connectors are weatherproof. (which an RJ45 type connector would not be).

basically, you're likely to need some kind of media converter to be able to plug these into your existing infrastructure.


the wireless served in office 1 and 2 (from WAP 1 and 4) can have the same SSID an passphrase if you want. (makes it nice and easy to roam between offices), but put the wireless channel on different numbers so that they don't intefere with each other.

the actual setup of the bridge in WDS mode is fairly standard.

you set it to bridge mode and enter the wireless MAC of your bridge base station into the remote WDS connection table, and you add the wireless MAC of your remote station into the WDS table of your base station,

then the two bridge endpoints will start talking to each other, (using WEP encrypted traffic) (WPA is not supported in WDS mode -not standard)
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Old 02-02-2011, 04:15 PM   #7
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Default Re: Setting up a new building with Wireless

Wow.. awesome Root. I haven't seen you in a while.. but I do know that when you give answers, they're awesome I saw your name and I silently said "Yes!" to myself.

I'm about to go in to a meeting with him. I'm not exactly sure what the point of WDS is still, other than it acts like a (halved) wireless access point. I just read Wikipedia on it though, no time right now for anything else. It kind of went back and fourth on if it has a stonger signal than just standard bridging... I guess my question is, Why WDS if we would have an additional access point on either side?

This is what I'm thinking the set up will be, some how. I guess with converters...

Wired Office - Modem and Stuff || Cisco Air BR1310G >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cisco Air BR1310G || Access point - Wireless computers

Where " || " is a cement wall that wireless signal won't go through. The 1310s would be mounted to the wall outside.

So we're not going to need those 1310s to act as an access point, I don't believe. These things can reach 5 miles, so I'm thinking the signal will be ok? You mentioned something about it being weak or something... I hope not!

But that's all basically what you said... I guess I just need to look up WDS mode more :P

---------------

Ah, I just read over it again. What you were saying would be slow was if we just had .. office-1310>>>>1310-office. Alright. And you said WDS is the standard.. so.. I guess that's just the protocol people use for bridging :P

I'll do a real reply later. I gotta do some reading up!

--------

Alright. Meeting is done. He.. doesn't really know either lol... except he likes the idea of wireless in both buildings AND on the outside. We're going to have a laptop with a scanner rollin around ... Same SSID thing is a great idea, but what about the area in between? Office || 1310>>>>>THIS AREA (ParkingLot)>>>>1310||office

So we're probably gonna get another access point and have four, like your model. If we configure those to be on the same SSID, would we have the 1310 on the same one too? And exactly what would we be sacrificing if we set the 1310 to WDA to act as an access point to. Would it be terrible? And would the half thing only take effect if the laptop was USING the 1310s connection (outside of the building).

My idea of WDA right now is:

It makes a super strong point to point bridge OR
It makes a .. worse point to point bridge with not so great wireless connectivity.
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Old 02-03-2011, 03:49 AM   #8
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Default Re: Setting up a new building with Wireless

the point of WDS is that it's a dedicated wireless link to the other network. the two devices only opperate with their partnered devices, (e.g. it's a dedicated 54Mbps link),

think about it this way, you have essentially two devices inside a WAP, a wireless network interface and a wired network interface.

so there are four channels, only one from each device can be used at any one time.
wireless in, wireless out, network in and network out

in Repeater mode.

you don't have the wired network plugged in, (or at least if you do it's not very important).

anyway, the point is your client sends some data, the repeater listens to this data, then retransmits this data, but it has to use the same device (wireless interface) to do that.

so it's listen, stop listening, transmit what's just been heard, stop tranismitting, start listening and so on.

now instead of a 54Mbps link, you've halved the speed to a 27Mbps link. (half bandwidth used to listen for traffic, half used to transmit traffic).


in WDS mode the wireless only talks to it's partnered devices, (i.e the base station will only talk to the remote station, and the remote station will only talk to the base station). the listening and transmitting to clients, is done via the wired network port. (or as I said before, if you've got a decent device, perhaps by a second wap packaged inside the same box.



My idea of WDA right now is:

It makes a super strong point to point bridge OR
It makes a .. worse point to point bridge with not so great wireless connectivity.


kind of exaclty backwards, the WDS standard only support WEP, so it makes a pretty weak bridge from a security point of view.
but it does make a pretty speedy bridge.


Quote:
Alright. Meeting is done. He.. doesn't really know either lol... except he likes the idea of wireless in both buildings AND on the outside. We're going to have a laptop with a scanner rollin around ... Same SSID thing is a great idea, but what about the area in between? Office || 1310>>>>>THIS AREA (ParkingLot)>>>>1310||office

So we're probably gonna get another access point and have four, like your model. If we configure those to be on the same SSID, would we have the 1310 on the same one too? And exactly what would we be sacrificing if we set the 1310 to WDA to act as an access point to. Would it be terrible? And would the half thing only take effect if the laptop was USING the 1310s connection (outside of the building).
you might find that the car park can be effectivly service through the cinder block walls, it's a little unlikely I'll admit, but it is possible.

the office I work in I can just (barely) get a wireless signal on my phone when stood outside, I estimate that the access point is about 20 - 30 feet from the outisde wall, but the wall is 2ft (24inch) solid stone, (our office is converted old farm buildings).


what I'd suggest is that you set up an access point inside the office and attach it to the outside wall, then see how good the signal is in the car park. you might find that this is good enough. to give wireless to the car park,
if it's not, then you'll need (yet another) WAP to go on the outside of the building, (remeber in WDS mode the WAPs that are creating the wireless bridge will only talk to devices that are partnered so these will not serve either instrastructure, or adhoc type wireless setup for the car park).

it's a bit of a moot point, because I would be willing to bet that there is a reasonable wifi signal in the car park from the waps that are inside the office anyway.

You use the same SID to make it easy to roam between the access points, even though you're enabling clients to roam between access points they won't swap and change at will, they have to wait for the signal to completely go from the first acess point before it'll join the stronger singnaled one.
though there is a cool product that lets you manage the wireless network and what clients connect to what WAP to let you balance load around the WAPs. -I'll have to ask a guy at work to remind me what that's called.

you put the access points on different channels, to stop inteference, -you'd do this at home, if your neighbours wireless network uses channel 11 for example you should choose a different channel to reduce any possible inteference.



Quote:
So we're probably gonna get another access point and have four, like your model. If we configure those to be on the same SSID, would we have the 1310 on the same one too? And exactly what would we be sacrificing if we set the 1310 to WDA to act as an access point to. Would it be terrible? And would the half thing only take effect if the laptop was USING the 1310s connection (outside of the building).
I hope I explained a bit better why repeaters effectivly half the speed above. you won't be setting the 1310s up as repeaters, so you will be able to keep the full bandwidth.
just to say again, your clients in the car park won't be able to connect to the 1310's when they are working in a WDS bridge mode.



I'll try and find some time to explain a bit better and post a decent guide about how to do this.
(I've only just finished creating this exact same setup at home so that I can move my wired network laser printer out of the lounge and upstairs and connect my NAS devices etc, and as I live in a rented house I couldn't put in structured cabling so I went for a wireless bridge).
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Old 02-03-2011, 09:35 AM   #9
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Default Re: Setting up a new building with Wireless

I guess I get WDS point to point... I guess what I don't get is the other options. There's WDS and just.. regular (slow) bridging? Seems like everyone would use WDS then... unless they didn't need that fast of a connection (which we do) and didn't have money for the WAPs...
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Old 02-03-2011, 10:31 AM   #10
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Default Re: Setting up a new building with Wireless

WDS is bridging.

basically, you have a handfull of options, that are useful for different reasons.


you could set your WAPs up in repeater mode, the downside to this is as I described earlier, reduced bandwidth.

you could setup your WAP in client mode, this would basically make it like a regular wireless client.
there are pro's and cons to this approach


the pro is that you can use WPA encryption, which is much stronger,
and you can hang a wired network off the back,

the con is that you can't attach another WAP to that wired network using the same SSID as your wap acting as a client is going to want to connect to the nice strong wireless signal that is closest, (the WAP that's plugged into this), which makes it a bit pointless.

you can set up a WAP in access point mode.
which would be great if you could run a cable through the car park.

and finally you can use the WDS mode.

this is the next best thing to putting a cable in the car park since it forms a dedicated link between the two offices.
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