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Old 12-23-2010, 08:09 PM   #11
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Default Re: Processor Debate help!

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Originally Posted by shozzking View Post
Get the 640 processor. Is this processor going into the PC in your signature? Did you build your computer or is it from dell, HP, Acer or some other company?
IDK if you have seen my other post, but im building a new computer for medium gaming you can go search it, but the problem is i can only get piece by piece and idk if i should save buy save buy or save until full money then buy
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Old 12-23-2010, 08:10 PM   #12
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Default Re: Processor Debate help!

save up until you have enough money and buy all of it at once, then you'll have more for your money as newer parts come out
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Old 12-23-2010, 08:51 PM   #13
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Default Re: Processor Debate help!

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Originally Posted by shozzking View Post
save up until you have enough money and buy all of it at once, then you'll have more for your money as newer parts come out
allright i am going to be building it by myself any guides for that or youtube it?
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Old 12-24-2010, 05:35 AM   #14
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Default Re: Processor Debate help!

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Originally Posted by GKil164 View Post
Wait, so C2 is the better stepping?
No, my apologies, it was a typo, C3 is the better one

Quote:
Originally Posted by vaironl View Post
I Don't really know what is C2 or C3 or OC
But if you would help me to find it i would love it!
Stepping is the revision of the chip. In the same way with all hardware, be it anything with a computer in, such TV or even your washing machine, or something mechanical, like your car, gets improved over time, but the main design stays the same, your processor does too.

The first revision of a chip is generally A1. A minor change makes number increment by one, so say you have a brand new chip which is A1. The manufacturer finds a minor fault or weak point, so they make a slight alteration, it would then be A2.

However, if they do nearly a full overhaul, but keep the basic design the same, the letter will change. So, from A2, there is a massive change, it will then be B2 stepping.

C2 to C3 therefore means that C3 had an upgrade over C2 in the design making it create less heat, use less power and OC (overclock) better

Overclocking is making a component work over the speed it was sold at. Say you have a CPU that runs at 2.8GHz, it doesn't mean that 2.8GHz is the highest speed it can run at, that isn't true at all. You can overclock it to change the clock speed to something higher, so say you could set it to 3.0GHz instead. The 0.2GHz will make the system faster than it would have otherwise been.

With some processors, they are the exact same chip, but with different clock speeds. Take an AMD Phenom II 955 and a Phenom II 965 for example. They are identical chips, but the 955 is at 3.2GHz, whilst the 965 is at 3.4GHz. The way the clock speed works on them is

FSB x multiplier

never mind what those mean, just accept it. The difference between the 2 chips is the multiplier. Both have FSB of 200MHz, but the 965 has a multiplier of x17:

200 x 17 = 3.4GHz

Whilst the 955 has a multiplier of x16

200 x 16 = 3.2GHz

By changing the multiplier of the 955 to x17 instead, you have a Phenom II 965. A Phenom II 970 is the same chip as those 2, but at 3.5GHz. It has a 17.5 multiplier

200 x 17.5 = 2.5GHz

There are certain downsides to overclocking though. The speed you can set a CPU to isn't unlimited, some chips overclock better than others, and even if you have a the same CPU as someone else, theirs may overclock better than yours, or yours may do better than theirs, it caries even between the "same" chips.

Large overclocks will require "voltage bumps" meaning you will have to increase the power supplied to the processor to make the system stable. Small overclocks, like making a 955 the same speed as the 965 or 970, shouldn't require one, it should work at stock voltages (the voltage that it is set to by AMD by default). Unstable systems will cause your system to hang (become unresponsive), BSOD (Blue Screen of Death, the proper term being a Stop Error, which is a system diagnostic when there is a hardware issue, it is when your computer restarts and you get a blue screen with a code in the format 0x00000000, usually saying dumping memory to prevent damage to hardware) or even not boot at all. When they happens you will have to set your BIOS settings to their default ones.

If you put a larger overclock on though, such as running your chip at the high 3. GHz or more, and need a voltage bump, the increased power to the chip will mean your chip creates more heat. This is generally where you need better cooling solutions, such as aftermarket HSF's (Heatsinks and Fans), or even more advanced ones such as water cooling, DICE, or, when you get into competative overclocking, liquid helium or nitrogen in a pot (a tub on top of a heatsink on top of your CPU). You only need more than air if you are going for a very big overclock though, usually you can put a reasonable overclock on stock cooling (the HSF that was supplied with your CPU), and a reasonably high (mid to high 4. GHz) on a decent air cooler.

The other major downside to overclocking is warranty. Technically overclocking will void your warranty, however there is no way for them to tell you have been overclocking, with the exception of motherboard manufacturers who can check the BIOS if you don't reset it before sending it out, so you can claim you haven't overclocked, provided you haven't cooked the chip and have black burn marks on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vaironl View Post
can you help me with all that? finding the proper one
and heat sink?
Like I mentioned above, if you aren't overclocking, or doing a large overclock, the stock heatsink that comes with the chip will be fine. You will get a heatsink with all processors that don't say they are OEM, all that say they are retail come with one. The other difference between OEM and Retail is the warranty, retail generally only comes with 30-60 day manufacturer warranty, where as retail will come with a few years warranty, it differes between manufacturers

Quote:
Originally Posted by vaironl View Post
IDK if you have seen my other post, but im building a new computer for medium gaming you can go search it, but the problem is i can only get piece by piece and idk if i should save buy save buy or save until full money then buy
It would be better to save up and get it all in one. Buying the first part now and the last part 6 months later will mean you payed more for a system that isn't as good, because prices drop and new technologies come out at the price point that you payed over time, so say you payed $100 now for a CPU, 6 months later you could get a chip that today is worth $150 then for $100
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Old 12-24-2010, 08:57 AM   #15
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Default Re: Processor Debate help!

Bear in mind that AMD and post LGA775 Intels don't use an FSB system. The FSB system was used with the old Intels that had their memory controllers off the CPU die; in the Northbridge.

These days you adjust either the Clock speed or CPU multiplier to get the CPU speed you want.

AMD use the HyperTransport and Intel now use the QPI instead of their old FSB system.
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Old 12-24-2010, 10:05 AM   #16
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Default Re: Processor Debate help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aastii View Post
No, my apologies, it was a typo, C3 is the better one



Stepping is the revision of the chip. In the same way with all hardware, be it anything with a computer in, such TV or even your washing machine, or something mechanical, like your car, gets improved over time, but the main design stays the same, your processor does too.

The first revision of a chip is generally A1. A minor change makes number increment by one, so say you have a brand new chip which is A1. The manufacturer finds a minor fault or weak point, so they make a slight alteration, it would then be A2.

However, if they do nearly a full overhaul, but keep the basic design the same, the letter will change. So, from A2, there is a massive change, it will then be B2 stepping.

C2 to C3 therefore means that C3 had an upgrade over C2 in the design making it create less heat, use less power and OC (overclock) better

Overclocking is making a component work over the speed it was sold at. Say you have a CPU that runs at 2.8GHz, it doesn't mean that 2.8GHz is the highest speed it can run at, that isn't true at all. You can overclock it to change the clock speed to something higher, so say you could set it to 3.0GHz instead. The 0.2GHz will make the system faster than it would have otherwise been.

With some processors, they are the exact same chip, but with different clock speeds. Take an AMD Phenom II 955 and a Phenom II 965 for example. They are identical chips, but the 955 is at 3.2GHz, whilst the 965 is at 3.4GHz. The way the clock speed works on them is

FSB x multiplier

never mind what those mean, just accept it. The difference between the 2 chips is the multiplier. Both have FSB of 200MHz, but the 965 has a multiplier of x17:

200 x 17 = 3.4GHz

Whilst the 955 has a multiplier of x16

200 x 16 = 3.2GHz

By changing the multiplier of the 955 to x17 instead, you have a Phenom II 965. A Phenom II 970 is the same chip as those 2, but at 3.5GHz. It has a 17.5 multiplier

200 x 17.5 = 2.5GHz

There are certain downsides to overclocking though. The speed you can set a CPU to isn't unlimited, some chips overclock better than others, and even if you have a the same CPU as someone else, theirs may overclock better than yours, or yours may do better than theirs, it caries even between the "same" chips.

Large overclocks will require "voltage bumps" meaning you will have to increase the power supplied to the processor to make the system stable. Small overclocks, like making a 955 the same speed as the 965 or 970, shouldn't require one, it should work at stock voltages (the voltage that it is set to by AMD by default). Unstable systems will cause your system to hang (become unresponsive), BSOD (Blue Screen of Death, the proper term being a Stop Error, which is a system diagnostic when there is a hardware issue, it is when your computer restarts and you get a blue screen with a code in the format 0x00000000, usually saying dumping memory to prevent damage to hardware) or even not boot at all. When they happens you will have to set your BIOS settings to their default ones.

If you put a larger overclock on though, such as running your chip at the high 3. GHz or more, and need a voltage bump, the increased power to the chip will mean your chip creates more heat. This is generally where you need better cooling solutions, such as aftermarket HSF's (Heatsinks and Fans), or even more advanced ones such as water cooling, DICE, or, when you get into competative overclocking, liquid helium or nitrogen in a pot (a tub on top of a heatsink on top of your CPU). You only need more than air if you are going for a very big overclock though, usually you can put a reasonable overclock on stock cooling (the HSF that was supplied with your CPU), and a reasonably high (mid to high 4. GHz) on a decent air cooler.

The other major downside to overclocking is warranty. Technically overclocking will void your warranty, however there is no way for them to tell you have been overclocking, with the exception of motherboard manufacturers who can check the BIOS if you don't reset it before sending it out, so you can claim you haven't overclocked, provided you haven't cooked the chip and have black burn marks on it.



Like I mentioned above, if you aren't overclocking, or doing a large overclock, the stock heatsink that comes with the chip will be fine. You will get a heatsink with all processors that don't say they are OEM, all that say they are retail come with one. The other difference between OEM and Retail is the warranty, retail generally only comes with 30-60 day manufacturer warranty, where as retail will come with a few years warranty, it differes between manufacturers



It would be better to save up and get it all in one. Buying the first part now and the last part 6 months later will mean you payed more for a system that isn't as good, because prices drop and new technologies come out at the price point that you payed over time, so say you payed $100 now for a CPU, 6 months later you could get a chip that today is worth $150 then for $100
OH now i understand all the basics about overclocking and the heat that it can produce,
allright my decision will be saving to get all the pieces at once and probably getting better future parts for a slight small price.
I'm trying to learn developing for games by myself motivation keeps me up but it's confusing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remeniz View Post
Bear in mind that AMD and post LGA775 Intels don't use an FSB system. The FSB system was used with the old Intels that had their memory controllers off the CPU die; in the Northbridge.

These days you adjust either the Clock speed or CPU multiplier to get the CPU speed you want.

AMD use the HyperTransport and Intel now use the QPI instead of their old FSB system.
Do You recommend AMD?
(Not to put brands in a war here)
but i heard intel is better and then AMD is better so being a amateur in this im confused
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Old 12-24-2010, 10:35 AM   #17
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Default Re: Processor Debate help!

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Originally Posted by vaironl View Post
Do You recommend AMD?
(Not to put brands in a war here)

but i heard intel is better and then AMD is better so being a amateur in this im confused
Either is a good option, but it depends on your uses. For general, every day use (browsing the net, office programs etc), either are fine, for gaming, same thing, for compiling programs, 2D rendering or massive amounts of number crunching.

The reason for this is that AMD CPUs (at the moment) give the best value for money when you look at the price of the chip compared to the performance it gives, with the best for this, comfortably, being an AMD Phenom II 955. Using Newegg's prices to demonstrate this:

Phenom II 955 is $145

The closest Intel chip (price wise) is $150 and is an i3 560, a 3.33GHz dual core.

It isn't until you get to $200 with the i5 750 that you get to an Intel quad core

However, an i5 750 is about equal performance, except in video conversion/file compression, where the i5 destroys the AMD chip, but for every user that isn't interested in using their system solely for video editing/conversion, the 955 is the best option for the price, hands down.


However, clock for clock, Intel CPUs are quicker, and Intel have the top end of the market tied up easily. An i7 9xx will beat even an AMD hex core in nearly every single situation, giving them a run for their money even in multithreaded applications. When you get to the very high end of the market, around an i7 970/980x, AMd has no answer.

It should be noted what I said above will almost certainly not be true in a months time when Sandy Bridge (Intel's new architecture) is released at the end of January, as prices will move around, most probably from both manufacturers, and, apparently, SB will come out around the current price of the current i5 processors. That means, should the prices of Sandy Bridge match or be close to that of the current i5 lineup, the i5 prices will drop to keep them competative, and when that happens the i5 7xx CPUs (the quad core ones) or even an i7 8xx may be the best option for the price, rather than AMD, because AMD will not have an answer until bulldozer (AMD's new architecture) is release mid-late next year
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Old 12-24-2010, 10:56 AM   #18
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Default Re: Processor Debate help!

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Originally Posted by Aastii View Post
Either is a good option, but it depends on your uses. For general, every day use (browsing the net, office programs etc), either are fine, for gaming, same thing, for compiling programs, 2D rendering or massive amounts of number crunching.

The reason for this is that AMD CPUs (at the moment) give the best value for money when you look at the price of the chip compared to the performance it gives, with the best for this, comfortably, being an AMD Phenom II 955. Using Newegg's prices to demonstrate this:

Phenom II 955 is $145

The closest Intel chip (price wise) is $150 and is an i3 560, a 3.33GHz dual core.

It isn't until you get to $200 with the i5 750 that you get to an Intel quad core

However, an i5 750 is about equal performance, except in video conversion/file compression, where the i5 destroys the AMD chip, but for every user that isn't interested in using their system solely for video editing/conversion, the 955 is the best option for the price, hands down.


However, clock for clock, Intel CPUs are quicker, and Intel have the top end of the market tied up easily. An i7 9xx will beat even an AMD hex core in nearly every single situation, giving them a run for their money even in multithreaded applications. When you get to the very high end of the market, around an i7 970/980x, AMd has no answer.

It should be noted what I said above will almost certainly not be true in a months time when Sandy Bridge (Intel's new architecture) is released at the end of January, as prices will move around, most probably from both manufacturers, and, apparently, SB will come out around the current price of the current i5 processors. That means, should the prices of Sandy Bridge match or be close to that of the current i5 lineup, the i5 prices will drop to keep them competative, and when that happens the i5 7xx CPUs (the quad core ones) or even an i7 8xx may be the best option for the price, rather than AMD, because AMD will not have an answer until bulldozer (AMD's new architecture) is release mid-late next year
Sounds fair, because i want to play good games modern warfare stuff like that and probably some released games at the time, You think the AMD might support it?
BTW probably by the time i have 800 bucks i can get better components, problem is im afraid that when i buy it i forget about some of the hardware might not be compatible since im going to have to do this by myself with no help at all!
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Old 12-24-2010, 11:31 AM   #19
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Sounds fair, because i want to play good games modern warfare stuff like that and probably some released games at the time, You think the AMD might support it?
BTW probably by the time i have 800 bucks i can get better components, problem is im afraid that when i buy it i forget about some of the hardware might not be compatible since im going to have to do this by myself with no help at all!
Yes, an AMD CPU will run any game currently out now, and that isn't set to change.

If you save, when you have $800, come back and create another thread asking for a build list and then you know everything will work. Then it is just a matter of putting your shape/colour recognition to the test to fit it all together
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Old 12-24-2010, 11:55 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Aastii View Post
Yes, an AMD CPU will run any game currently out now, and that isn't set to change.

If you save, when you have $800, come back and create another thread asking for a build list and then you know everything will work. Then it is just a matter of putting your shape/colour recognition to the test to fit it all together
allright thanks for all the help and i don't want to bother anymore but do you know any good tuts for C# i got some already from a thread i made but i feel like those tuts where for programing something else i have no idea about.
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