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Old 09-30-2008, 04:53 PM   #11
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Default Re: Need help finishing a build

I don't think it's that underrated. I think the view a lot of people have of the phenom is that it's old tech that's basically being taken out and driven to the max (remind you of anything - Prescott P4???) . And the reality is that's the truth. It runs so hot, and it's nowhere near as overclockable as a core 2 duo. You can get about 30-40% more juice out of a core 2 on stock cooling. You'd be best getting the marsh mallows out for the phenom.

As for the benchmarks, a similarly clocked core 2 quad will wipe the floor with a Phenom in 90% of real world benchmarks. Not with synthetic ones, not so easy, but as I hinted with my previous post, thats due to the integrated memory controller, and synthetic benchmarks are no subsitute to real world application benching.

Even the 9950BE, AMD's flagship, is in a good number of real world tests slower than the dudes E8500 dual core. And the tests that the 9950BE is way ahead are mostly ones that would take advantage of the quad cores opposed to the C2D two. That annomaly then makes you go back to the slower quad v faster dual question.

I'm not dissing the Phenom as a defunct and useless CPU, it's just not as good. Especially for the enthusiast.
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Old 10-01-2008, 01:07 AM   #12
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Default Re: Need help finishing a build

Quote:
I don't think it's that underrated. I think the view a lot of people have of the phenom is that it's old tech that's basically being taken out and driven to the max (remind you of anything - Prescott P4???)
I really do not agree with that at all. AMD said themselves that K10 is just to complex for a 65nm process, that's why leakage is so bad. Whereas Core has reached it's full potential, we haven't seen half of what K10 can do yet.
Now IIRC, Core is based on the P3 architecture.
Quote:
As for the benchmarks, a similarly clocked core 2 quad will wipe the floor with a Phenom in 90% of real world benchmarks. Not with synthetic ones, not so easy, but as I hinted with my previous post, thats due to the integrated memory controller, and synthetic benchmarks are no subsitute to real world application benching.
That is not true, K10 is about equal clock for clock to Conroe/Kentsfield. And it would be normal for a 2.6GHz Phenom to lose to a 3.13GHz dual in single threaded apps.
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Old 10-01-2008, 01:11 AM   #13
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Default Re: Need help finishing a build

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Originally Posted by Austinn View Post
Thats not exactly true. AMD can be overclocked. It doesnt matter what one you get. they both can be overclocked. Their are benchmarks showing that AMD can keep up with intel. Sure, Maybe intel will preform better. But AMD can be just as good. AMD is good for the budget build.
thats not what i meant.
What i meant was that its cheaper to get AMD at a higher clock than getting an Intel with an lower clock.
and you pretty much have to OC Intel if you bought ram that ran faster than 667mhz.
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Old 10-01-2008, 01:25 AM   #14
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Default Re: Need help finishing a build

Thanks for all of the info. I really appreciate it. It seems to me that duo core is just better for me since I don't do any video converting etc (or if I do it's really simple stuff with really simple programs). Also thanks for the info on Tom's, I'll definitely look into those sites.

This is what I'm thinking now and I'll probably order this this weekend unless you all have some other suggestions

CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E8500

Video Card: Palit's HD 4850

HDD: Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 500 GB, 7200 RPM

CPU Fan: Xigmatek HDT-S1283

Case: NZXT Tempest

Motherboard: Thinking one of these 3 but too tired to finish researching this tonight. Any recommendations?
ASUS P5Q Pro LGA
DFI LP DK P45
BIOSTAR TPower I45


PSU: OCZ GameXStream

RAM: G.SKILL 4GB DDR2 800
Can someone please tell me the difference between these 3 RAM's? Why is the 4 latency so cheap comparatively? I thought it was a lot better.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231122
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231148
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231173

Link to comparison here: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231122
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Old 10-01-2008, 09:16 AM   #15
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Default Re: Need help finishing a build

Worshipme,
Suppose at the end of the day, it depends on your opinion and perception of it. The Core2 isn't based entirely on P3, it's radically different on a number of fronts. What it isn't though, is based on P4. ie, not the netburst architecture. Which was pretty poor with 1.3GHz P3s out performing 1.4GHz P4's. The K10 is far more like the K8 than the Core 2 is to the Pentium 3.

Anyway, I'm not saying the Phenom is a bad CPU. My opinion is it isn't currently as good as Intel. Maybe when they move away from the 65nm fabrication, things will be different, but if AMD themselves are saying leakage is so bad at 65nm (todays K10) that it's the cause for such a huge wattage (and therefore heat output), then it doesn't matter what the K10 is possible of, it's the CPUs out now that matter. Not future ones.


Luca5371
As for the memory differences, the latency is the time needed to wait between read and write operations, so to speak, can be done on RAM. Think of it like Ping on a network. On an intel system, with the memory controller being a function of the northbridge, better latency timings doesn't have a significant effect on system performance (read, less than 2%, if that). It's a different story with AMD CPU's though, with FPS in games having a difference of up to 10% with decent, low latency memory. Go for the cheapest at the highest speed. Gives you more room for overclocking in the future (more MHz increases performance far more that better latency timings). Note also, if your getting the E8500 it's got a Quad pumped FSB of 1.333GHz, so in reality, you only need 666MHz memory as you'll be having it running in dual channel. Having it any faster or slower than half the FSB of the CPU will degrade the performance due to it running out of sync. The 800MHz stuff would allow an overclock for a FSB of 1.6GHz if your motherboard, your wits and your CPU were up to it.

Out of the motherboards, my gut instinct is telling me to stay with the ASUS one, but thats only coz IMO, there best for quality and stability. I swear by them. But that's probably not a good enough reason for you to base your decision on. Especially since the link to the BIOSTAR one you posted has great reviews and is seemenly a hefty overclocker. But there is a price difference.

DFI usually give slightly less performance at stock speeds (like, less that 5% difference) but some models are crazy overclockers. But in all honesty, thats from reading reviews not experience, so I'm not qualified to comment.
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Old 10-01-2008, 10:21 AM   #16
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Default Re: Need help finishing a build

Sorry, stupid post and don't know who to simply delete it.
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Old 10-01-2008, 02:24 PM   #17
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Default Re: Need help finishing a build

90% of people dont need quad cores, get a dual core
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Old 10-01-2008, 03:49 PM   #18
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Default Re: Need help finishing a build

Quote:
Motherboard: Thinking one of these 3 but too tired to finish researching this tonight. Any recommendations?
ASUS P5Q Pro LGA
DFI LP DK P45
BIOSTAR TPower I45
Since you won't be overclocking, you don't need to spend a whole lot on a motherboard. Just get something that will support everything you need and perhaps CF? Biostar P45
Quote:
PSU: OCZ GameXStream
The GameXStream is just the StealthXStream with some fancy lights. No point spending the extra IMO. You could get the modular for the same price, 500W would actually be enough for you: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817341016
Quote:
RAM: G.SKILL 4GB DDR2 800
Can someone please tell me the difference between these 3 RAM's? Why is the 4 latency so cheap comparatively? I thought it was a lot better.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231122
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231148
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231173
The third kit has fancy fins and slightly better modules + a six layer PCB. For you build, as you're not overclocking. I suggest you go for the cheapest 2x2GB 800 CL4 kit you can find, which would be these.
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Old 10-03-2008, 05:06 PM   #19
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Default Re: Need help finishing a build

I know I said I won't be overclocking but I'm thinking about it more and more. I would be a complete newbie though so is there any good guides you guys know about (hopefully step-by-step). Also, any changes you would recommend? I would bet get different RAM since it's so cheap. I decided to go with the 600w OCZ StealthXStream PSU and the Biostar Mobo.

Finally, I have a few questions about overclocking in general.
1. How easy is it? Easy as building a new computer?

2. I've always had the impression that overclocking a computer leads to a shorter life span for its components. Is this true even if it is adequately cooled?

I also had a few questions about Windows Vista. I currently own XP and was just planning on staying with that and saving myself some money. However, it seems like Vista is here to stay so would you all recommend upgrading now. It seems that now might be the easiest time.

1. Would you recommend me going with Vista and would you recommend the 64 bit version?

2. I believe the 64 bit version can lead to certain programs/hardware not being able to run any more. How can I find out if mine will run, especially the programs since I have some older games and I would assume my components should work since they're all pretty new?

3. For the software I thought I read that 32 bit programs should work but 16 bit won't. Is that true and if so, how can I tell?

4. Also, I read somewhere that Vista 64 bit runs 32 bit programs slower than XP 32 but this was someone posting from a while ago. Is this true?

5. How much RAM can a 64 bit system use?

Thanks for the answers.
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Old 10-03-2008, 05:18 PM   #20
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Default Re: Need help finishing a build

1. How easy is it? Easy as building a new computer?

its pretty easy, then again, it really aint. It depends on how much you want to Overclock, if its to increase a few mhz, then its fairly easy, but increase to about 1ghz or more, then it will be hard, and risky since you can fry your Mobo, Ram, and CPU. I wouldnt suggest it unless you would know how to do it, or have someone show you in person (or talk to someone on IM)

2. I've always had the impression that overclocking a computer leads to a shorter life span for its components. Is this true even if it is adequately cooled?


Yes, even if its cooled, its life will be shorter. Though a processor can last a long time, and if you overclock it by a lot, you can still use it for a few years, so i wouldnt worry about it, with new CPU coming every year or so..

I also had a few questions about Windows Vista.

1. Would you recommend me going with Vista and would you recommend the 64 bit version?

If you are going to have 4GB of ram and want to use DX10 in gaming, then i recommend you going to vista, the OS is great, i like it. I dont know much about the 64 bit version, but it seems like a lot of people prefer that one instead, and it seems like they arent having as much conflict as they did with Windows XP.

For answers 2-4...
I dont think i can answer that one since i dont use a 64-bit OS.
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