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Old 10-04-2008, 03:13 PM   #11
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Default Re: Do computers need to be balanced?

Originally Posted by 2457 View Post
look for the news DUDE, for example the 140 watt rated phenoms tends to destroy motherboards.
Even asus had to release ones that can handle such power.
Usualy the regulators can't take the load. So makeing sure they have sufficient cooling is important if You wanna get performance for long periods.

allso even brushless dc motors make noise in power lines.
"Brushless motors will not induce any noise in to a line or generate EMI in to the environment." --> thats not true. compared to ones that use brushes its much much better. but still they do make noise.

and.. about the "tin can" --> noise can not just get into there from outside.
You got plenty of stuff inside the case.

About antennas..

look there if you do not belive me.
And tell me,
λ = 3108^8 m/s divided by freqvency in hertz -->
say.. for a 3ghz cpu a 10 cm long cable is enough to catch it.

how true is it? well verry true.
A normal pc psu has 230 ac (or 110 ac..) line filtered with a simple ferrite bead too.
like that one.
the ferrite bead is visible.

" Computers are classified as unintentional radiators under Part 15 of FCC regulations. Part 15 limits the amount of interference that will be caused by a computer system, but the regulations protect a neighboring home from having television interference when you operate your computer, for example. They are not usually sufficient to ensure that your computer will not interfere with sensitive reception in the same room."

so.. You got long enough cables in there, a LOT of them to get this signal. And Your grounded pc case will not shield any cables inside the case, since most noise comes from within the case.

a computer has many many high freqvency parts in it, one by one they do not couse any problems. But there are situations when they amplify each others waves.
like.. 800 mhz wave and 2,4 ghz wave will interfer with each other,
every 3rd 800 mhz pulse will add to the 2,4ghz pulse. just 2 of the many.
there is allso pci clocks, and a lot other high freqvency stuff in that case, and at some freqvency they will produce a good amount of noise.

for example look around the back of any motheboard, where the cpu socket is.


You will find a shitload of these, they are the small fitercaps.
If You would remove them, cpu could not operate well. It would often freez.

those who are a bit skilled in electronics will notcie that many of these are missing from most motherboards. Solder in the missing components, and You will be able to do better overclocking.

like this dude.
But he replaced the big filtercaps, not the smd ones at the back of the board.

soo yess, if You wanna get a stable system, go for it, and make things shielded, and make sure to reduce noise in lines.

Mostly those little changes in vcore, and other power rails You see while only looking at bios voltage monitors are comming from things like that.

Thats why they repeat periodicly.

question, why won't "overclockers" use it?
they do, but not the "I set xy fsb and cpu multiplier" types.
But those who do have skills to do things right.

allso EMI pollution is probably getting higer in any home nowdays, thats why bios includes the spread spectrum options, to avoid repeating/oscillating collisions with other signals. Most people don't need them, and overclocking wise its BAD to have it on.

but surely adding filters and caps helps any motherboard, many of them are not soldered in regular products, becouse for "avarage joe" it will do o.k. without them.

allso a quick test for Yours "pc case as shield" theory, grab a usb wi-fi product, and place it INSIDE Your case, and see if you can get a reading.
Yes, You will be able. Pc case will not act as a true shielding.
will filter some, but not too much.

Allso notice how a switching power supply works.
And You will notice the 25 khz STRONG signal.
that drives the powersupplys trnasformers primer part.

So much for that.


esata for example has extra shielding. but even if You do not put your mobo in a case, the unshielded internal sata cable will still work.

thats becouse its filtered, and there are many error corection mechanism.
but it reduces transfer speed.

so anyways, any cable WILL benefit from shielding. Thats the lession.
For serious overclockers its a musthave.

if You change the "big caps" close to the cpu socket with quality products Vcore will not drop under load that much. --> better, way better results.

for EMI inside a computer case, look at this thing-

the port that faces the inside the case was supposed to be used for bluetooth/wi-fi usb sticks, now hows about that?
from the wavelenght calculation You can easyli figure out you got plenty of antennas in there to pick up this trash.

You can do a simple test, even the bios voltage lvl indicators will show a noticable difference if you got a wi-fi product nearby switched on, and specialy if its close to Your computer.

For "best results" get a cpu that runs 2,4 ghz, and get a wifi product that allso uses 2,4 ghz. You will notice the change in the vcore.

if you run stability tests the effect will be realy noticeable.

for a good tuning platform the first musthave is a quality power supply, everyone knows. Now I showd You why. besides power, You need clean power lines. And realy quality PSU has good fitering. Allowing better overclock results.

I hope you are happy now.
+1 for the effort, but no offense, its pretty long, and i dont think i would read something like this

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Old 10-04-2008, 03:34 PM   #12
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Default Re: Do computers need to be balanced?

mm yeah sorry about the lenght, I was.. just trying to show that if You wanna overclock, You get much better results if You shiled power lines, add filter caps, and change caps around cpu socket to quality made ones.

with a medicore mobo You will still beat any "factory default" overpriced "oc mobo for gamers/entusiams" or what they label them now.

not to mention system stability.. and lifetime of parts.

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Old 10-04-2008, 04:55 PM   #13
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Default Re: Do computers need to be balanced?

I pencil mod mine to eliminate Vdroop, works like a charm.
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Old 10-04-2008, 06:07 PM   #14
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Default Re: Do computers need to be balanced?

only problem is if you start soldering things to your motherboard and swapping caps im pretty sure your warrenty will be void
and all of those things whilst correct will not really be of any use to you unless you are planning some extreme overclocking , which is something i dont do in fact i dont do any overclocking . so for most people you dont need to solder or swap components on your motherboard or shield power lines in your computer if you just wanna use your computer for everyday use none of them things will enhance your experience nor will they be necessary
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Old 10-04-2008, 06:09 PM   #15
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Default Re: Do computers need to be balanced?

Originally Posted by muz View Post
only problem is if you start soldering things to your motherboard and swapping caps im pretty sure your warrenty will be void
and all of those things whilst correct will not really be of any use to you unless you are planning some extreme overclocking , which is something i dont do in fact i dont do any overclocking . so for most people you dont need to solder or swap components on your motherboard or shield power lines in your computer if you just wanna use your computer for everyday use none of them things will enhance your experience nor will they be necessary
Maybe, But it's pretty fuc*ing cool, isnt it!

It looks like this guy know's his stuff...
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Old 10-04-2008, 07:51 PM   #16
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Default Re: Do computers need to be balanced?


As the title says does a computers hardware specs have to be balanced to get better performance? Does it really matter?

Plz Answer."

was the original question.
I think filtering is part of balancing too.
It was about to get superior performance.
This is a way to reach superior performance, and LONG life of equipment.

I make custom machines, I earn a bit of my income that way.
That means, I get a realy decent mobo, throw out a lot of "junk" it has,
and replace them with proper components. And I mean quality capacitors, proper cooling, proper shielding, and usualy a modded PSU.

the modded PSU has a precise oscillator(self made crystal oscillator), filtering right after the first graetz bridge, and a bit bigger voltage than originaly on all output lines. Only lines that are in use left in the PSU. (so.. just as many connectors as the device uses) and each line has its own buffer caps, filters, and voltage regulator. Allso main lines a buffered with larger caps too.
Ferrit beads are applyd TOO.

afterwards its a bit like a laboratory PSU.

I have some friends who work with a "lathe" machine, and "Milling" machines.
they make me custom heatsinks and accesories, out of aluminum.

I prefer that, becouse copper with time oxidates, and afterwards it will show not too good heat transfer chars.

I eloxate aluminium heatsinks my self with sulfuric acid.
both contact surfaces are polishd by hand, by me.

usualy my stuff has 10-20% more overclock than originaly.
I mean, if You can get xtra say.. 500 mhz out of a cpu, after my mods I can have 550-600 mhz for example.

Allso custom modded vga cards are made by my sometimes,
just the usual things. Adding the filters, reating a proper cooling system,
adding some missing components, changeing whats obsolate.

About warranty.. Yeah, after a mod You loose it.
but my makes last longer. REduced heat stress, and quality components do make it more resistant to breakdowns.

Usualy "pc geeks" can only tell You what You need to swap (memory, mobo, vga) but will not be able to tell why did it fail. They do not care about it.

Allso electrolit caps tend to dry out, and afterwards the equpiment will not, may get a short, or get damaged by it.
Solid state caps don't do that, but cost more.

and there are other things too. Caps close to cpu will heat up.
So anything that has elco caps there is doomed.

Some manufactirers allready use solid caps on motherboards, they do tell too they last longer. (Gigabyte offers them).

about durability.. I do make ultra durable computers too, from mini-itx boards.
I can make them last verry long. Same mods there too, LOL..

they preform verry well in idustrial applications, where the huge electronic engines leave a shitload of thres in the main lines, allso work well from not-too sophysticated aggregators (varrying freqvency, big bumps in main voltage etc...etc...etc..) a mobile concrete factory uses my industrial computer, to controll the thing. it has its own aggregator, but that was ment to power the electronic engines for the thing, and not computers. Before useing my stuff they did blew quite a lot computers. --> that was the time I figured maybe others will be intrested in REAL mods.
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Old 10-04-2008, 08:19 PM   #17
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Default Re: Do computers need to be balanced?

of course it needs to be balanced, you can't have one good part like a GPU, then a really bad processor, it needs to be balanced so it works with the machine...
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Old 10-04-2008, 09:35 PM   #18
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Default Re: Do computers need to be balanced?

Well, now that the thread kinda went off topic by 2457, I just have one thing to ask him.

Why would I do any of those things you just mentioned?
Also, What noise? There's noise coming out of my PSU wire's? All I hear is the low hum from 5 of my 8 fans air flow, so even if there is sound coming from what ever your talking about, I can't hear it. All I do is:
I put it together, it works, I overclock, It works.
I put it together, it doesn't work, I replace the broken part, it works.

Plus, if you buy a quality motherboard, why would things not be soldered in place right? Also, you said "PC Geeks" tell you what is the problem etc., and they tell you to get a new part. I doubt someone will understand if you tell them all of there CPU voltage regulators on there motherboard failed and you need to replace them.

I understand where your coming from, but all of your points can be disregarded with simple logic. You upgrade/buy a new computer every 2-3 years as they get out dated so you can forget about longevity. Electrical interference? I have 2 computers, a Xbox 360, a PS3, all on a wireless network except for one(Ethernet Wired, but has a wireless sharing network setup with the other computer), AND a pair of 2.4Ghz wireless phones. I have never had ANY problem with any of the things your mentioning.

I see you know your stuff, but in somethings, the prices and effort don't justify the benefits.
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Old 10-05-2008, 01:13 AM   #19
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Default Re: Do computers need to be balanced?

Noise as in interferance NEED WOW NOW.
But modern systems don't need all those mods done to them. There is next to nothing as far as interferance on the wiring in a modern computer system. Fans and hard drive motors are brushless motors therefore they do not inject any noise back on the lines. Also the boards are designed to reduce EMI inducted by circuit lands and componets. It just doesn't make any good sense to go farting around with a board just so you can brag to your pc geek buddies that you did that.
It makes so slight of a difference that you risk more than you gain. It's kinda like flashing a bios that doesn't really need it. You're taking an unwarranted risk for microscopic gain.

If it's as bad inside the can, then why do cable makers still use unshield cable for SATA drives? If there is a problem with EMI, why don't psu makers shield the connector cables out of the box? Because modern psu's are made to cleanly filter the current before it leaves the psu. Why in God's Name would I want to kill my warranty and run the risk of smoking my set up just to get another .0001% more filtering? Even when you overclock it's still not needed.

For the record, I'm an MIT grad with a degree in electrical engineering. I'm also a certified aviation electronics technician. I've been in electronics since I was very young. My first words were "Plug it in." And I've been building computers for almost 15 years.

+1 for NEED WOW NOW. Neat way you put things.

I just thought of something else. If you use metal screws to attach the motherboard to the brass standoffs, which screw in to the metal motherboard mounting plate, you have grounded the motherboard to the case. When you mount the power supply to the case, it grounds the case. The third wire which is the green one inside the AC power cord, is physically attached to the case of the power supply. That is the earth ground lead. So any EMI tossed out in to the case, like any other form of current, will be fed to earth ground. Pci cards, hard drives, optical drives, and anything else that attaches to the case will be also grounded. It's no where near as haphazard as you're making it out to be.

And that's the long and the short of things. The people that design these systems are no dummies. They do what they do for a reason.
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Old 10-05-2008, 07:59 PM   #20
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Default Re: Do computers need to be balanced?

" MIT grad with a degree in electrical engineering."
thank god. At least I don't need to explain how electronics work..

Allso, if You are an engineer You know whats an "unintendent radiator" --> yess, best example is the pc.

mmm.. never said everyone needs to grab soldering irons, and start messing with things. So You should not act like that.
Is someone is realy going for performance, and want's best oc results, then its a considerable thing. its NOT expensive, as You know that caps are not an expensive product nowdays. Not even solid caps.

It won't be as good as a liquid nitro cooling, nor dry ice cooling, those get more performance, but those are no solutions for longer terms.

While this is.
Sadly enermax site is down ATM (dunno why)
but as soon as its online I gona post You a nice quality psu internals.
Whats pointed out there are:
Anodized alu heat sinks (I use that kind too)
a special EMI filtering board (Yes, the pc metal case is not a proper shielding, thats why its there)
and heavy duty capacitor (do I have to tell why? Your an engineer, You know)

" certified aviation electronics technician. I've been in electronics since I was very young. My first words were "Plug it in." And I've been building computers for almost 15 years."

--> arent aviation electronic the ones that don't like any kind of EMI source nearby? O yess they are.. You should know that computers are supreme when it gets to emmit EMI, and allso to collect it.. If a simple metal case would be enough I think aviation eletronics would not be vulnerable to EMI.
Since those things are realy shilded, its one of the top priority.

--> for 15 years computer building, thats good. Than You must have heard a LOT about the "capacitor conspiracy" problem with a lot of cheap supplyers.
And the failing / unreliable motherboards related.

now back a bit.
As I said, these mods are not needed by "avarage joe". And digital error correction can handle a lot of junk in signals (wich may come from EMI, but from power lines TOO, for example a plugged in mic in You soundcard does collect RF signals pretty good, and allso amplifyes them , they ahve filters thats why it does not makes a pc go insane. But surely some signals leak in there too, alone harmless, but many many small interferences make a lot of work for error correction mechanisms, wich is not good if You wanna overclock)

so if someone is not fine with the overclock performance, but does not wanna freeze things down, than these modifications are a good solution.
Should be labeld as "attempt only if You are a skilled person in electronics"

before any critism please look around for the "capacity conspiracy" and gigabytes website for all solid cap motherboards (the ultra durable motherboard came like this, this part is which gives them the extra stability and performance, and overclocking chart)

allso enermax psu buildups,
and last but not least search ferrite beads as filter devices, any notebook charger for example have them ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrite_bead )

and some powersupply makers add one to the PSU output cables too.

thisone has 3 beads just at the input stage.
--> most psu do not have such a good filtering.

so all I use is allready in production, but realy over priced.
You can find all of these technics, and the reasons they apply them.

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