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Old 01-14-2010, 01:45 AM   #71
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Default Re: Build Guide for Teens

Sounds good to me. That's all new platforms, so that computer will take upgrades for quite a while. Keeping one upgraded is a much better option than buying a new one every so often, because you either have backup parts, or spare parts to sell.

About the PSU, it's not over heating that's the problem, it's components actually failing. If, for example, a component fails, catches fire, and melts its solder, it can easily short-circuit comething. Sometimes it'll just shut off, and sometimes it'll do something crazy. It's very possible that it could fry every single component in your computer. The PSU is really the one thing you want to splurge on in a PC...not cheap out on.

I asked about a similar diablotek psu in another, much larger forum, and got a very negative response. It may have 5 stars, which is what drew me to it as well, but the general consensus is that diablotek is just not a good brand to buy from. That cooler master deal you posted a few pages back was better. Still not the best, but better.
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Old 01-14-2010, 07:32 AM   #72
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Default Re: Build Guide for Teens

Quote:
Originally Posted by nickelodeonn View Post
Thanks! I'm gonna go with approach 3

RAM: much appreciated I'll try to find a DDR2/DDR3 MOBO... do those even exist?
there have been in the past boards that exist that take two different types of memory, but these generally are limited in that:
there is usually only 2 slots of each type
you can use the two types together.

so you're better of settling on DDR3 now and getting a board with 4 slots, but only filling 1 of them now, that way you have plenty of room for expansion later.


Quote:
Anyway, I'm going to go with 500GB HDD, because it seems like saving $15 to get a 80-250GB is a waste...
yes, my examples of size were a little off, but the theory is still the same, I mean if you figure that in four years you'll need 1.5TB of storage, then you'd do better to wait a few years and but a 1TB drive to go with your 500GB drive that you have now, because the 1TB drives will fall in price within that time.

Quote:
And, I don't know if my CPU and MOBO are good, considering everyone else is pointing me in different directions..!!
you'll always find that there are fan boys, and different peoples opinions are based on different things.

what you ideally want will depend on what you want to do, if you just want to browse the internet using linux then an old 1GHz processor will be fine. if you want to play games then you'll need to know (and try to exceed) the minimum hardware requirements for this.

Quote:
Thanks! That seems affordable and thrifty Is it worth it, though? I mean... 2.4 is slow.
the way I see it is like this:
ideally, right now you want a computer, so you could spend $100 on a mainboard and $200 on the latest fastest processor.

or you can spend $100 on the main board and $30 on a processor that fits the main board. but is a lot slower than the $200 processor.

then next year, or in a couple of years there will be a new latest greatest processor, and the $200 you want now will only be $50 then, so you buy it then and extend the life of your build.

you also put the one you take out on ebay and get $10 back for it.

Quote:
How fast do you think I can keep it going at a nice, cool rate?
I don't personally recommend over clocking a machine if you don't really know what you're doing.

but if you're going down that route it's best to start out slow, and monitor the speed temperature and system stability, if a 1% overclock is stable then try for 2% then 3% etc,
soon you'll reach a state where the temperature is climbing too high, stability is useless, then you know to bring it back a little from there.

how much you can keep it cool depends on the case and the cooling method, as well as what else you've got in the system.

lots of hard drive, and a chunky graphics card will also generate heat that the case fans need to get rid of.
if you're messy with your cabling, (especially ribbon cables coming out of CD/DVD drives) you can obstruct the air flow and reduce the cooling efficiency.
(if you go for water/oil cooling then this isn't so important). -but that's really outside the realms of a budget build.

if you're sticking with forced air the ambient temperature in the room also matters. (as air alone can only draw out so much heat).
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Old 01-14-2010, 08:32 AM   #73
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Default Re: Build Guide for Teens

Quote:
I don't personally recommend over clocking a machine if you don't really know what you're doing.
I'd actually go a step further than this and wouldn't recommend overclocking a machine unless you've got a genuine need to see a speed increase. Most people that overclock their systems really don't do it for any particular reason - and the result is often nothing more noticeable than a shortened processor life.
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Old 01-14-2010, 01:50 PM   #74
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Default Re: Build Guide for Teens

Quote:
Originally Posted by root View Post
what you ideally want will depend on what you want to do, if you just want to browse the internet using linux then an old 1GHz processor will be fine.
Not true at all! With today's modern websites, you need something like the intel atom at the very least. That's roughly the equivalent of a 3.5ghz pentium 4. Even then, it won't be very snappy. My 2.8ghz celeron struggles with standard quality youtube, and maxes out on standard operating system processes, even with linux. Websites and OS's are constantly getting more complex, too, so it's only going to get worse. Personally, i wouldn't recommend anything less than a 2ghz dual core for a web computer.
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Old 01-14-2010, 04:04 PM   #75
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Default Re: Build Guide for Teens

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutant Corn View Post
Sounds good to me. That's all new platforms, so that computer will take upgrades for quite a while. Keeping one upgraded is a much better option than buying a new one every so often, because you either have backup parts, or spare parts to sell.

About the PSU, it's not over heating that's the problem, it's components actually failing. If, for example, a component fails, catches fire, and melts its solder, it can easily short-circuit comething. Sometimes it'll just shut off, and sometimes it'll do something crazy. It's very possible that it could fry every single component in your computer. The PSU is really the one thing you want to splurge on in a PC...not cheap out on.

I asked about a similar diablotek psu in another, much larger forum, and got a very negative response. It may have 5 stars, which is what drew me to it as well, but the general consensus is that diablotek is just not a good brand to buy from. That cooler master deal you posted a few pages back was better. Still not the best, but better.
All right! But what's wrong with it? What does that have to do with the PSU? "it's not over heating that's the problem, it's components actually failing. If, for example, a component fails, catches fire, and melts its solder, it can easily short-circuit comething." How does that connect?

Quote:
Originally Posted by root View Post
there have been in the past boards that exist that take two different types of memory, but these generally are limited in that:
there is usually only 2 slots of each type
you can use the two types together.

so you're better of settling on DDR3 now and getting a board with 4 slots, but only filling 1 of them now, that way you have plenty of room for expansion later.



yes, my examples of size were a little off, but the theory is still the same, I mean if you figure that in four years you'll need 1.5TB of storage, then you'd do better to wait a few years and but a 1TB drive to go with your 500GB drive that you have now, because the 1TB drives will fall in price within that time.


you'll always find that there are fan boys, and different peoples opinions are based on different things.

what you ideally want will depend on what you want to do, if you just want to browse the internet using linux then an old 1GHz processor will be fine. if you want to play games then you'll need to know (and try to exceed) the minimum hardware requirements for this.


the way I see it is like this:
ideally, right now you want a computer, so you could spend $100 on a mainboard and $200 on the latest fastest processor.

or you can spend $100 on the main board and $30 on a processor that fits the main board. but is a lot slower than the $200 processor.

then next year, or in a couple of years there will be a new latest greatest processor, and the $200 you want now will only be $50 then, so you buy it then and extend the life of your build.

you also put the one you take out on ebay and get $10 back for it.

I don't personally recommend over clocking a machine if you don't really know what you're doing.

but if you're going down that route it's best to start out slow, and monitor the speed temperature and system stability, if a 1% overclock is stable then try for 2% then 3% etc,
soon you'll reach a state where the temperature is climbing too high, stability is useless, then you know to bring it back a little from there.

how much you can keep it cool depends on the case and the cooling method, as well as what else you've got in the system.

lots of hard drive, and a chunky graphics card will also generate heat that the case fans need to get rid of.
if you're messy with your cabling, (especially ribbon cables coming out of CD/DVD drives) you can obstruct the air flow and reduce the cooling efficiency.
(if you go for water/oil cooling then this isn't so important). -but that's really outside the realms of a budget build.

if you're sticking with forced air the ambient temperature in the room also matters. (as air alone can only draw out so much heat).
Wow! Lots of helpful information! I am moving to Texas (hot!) soon, so i might get a better fan there. Right now I'm in MI and it's winter, and in my basement it's freezing. So, for now, I'll stick with the stock fan, and I'll try not to jumble up the cords and I'll get cord ties.

I think I'll stick with my stock speeds until I learn a little more about overclocking -- and I have a better case! Is the Diablotek PSU really that bad? How can a PSU cause my parts to overheat?


Quote:
Originally Posted by berry120 View Post
I'd actually go a step further than this and wouldn't recommend overclocking a machine unless you've got a genuine need to see a speed increase. Most people that overclock their systems really don't do it for any particular reason - and the result is often nothing more noticeable than a shortened processor life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutant Corn View Post
Not true at all! With today's modern websites, you need something like the intel atom at the very least. That's roughly the equivalent of a 3.5ghz pentium 4. Even then, it won't be very snappy. My 2.8ghz celeron struggles with standard quality youtube, and maxes out on standard operating system processes, even with linux. Websites and OS's are constantly getting more complex, too, so it's only going to get worse. Personally, i wouldn't recommend anything less than a 2ghz dual core for a web computer.
Okay, I got a 2.9 GHz Athlon II 245... will that be good enough? I'm not going to overclock unless extremely necessary..
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Old 01-14-2010, 04:12 PM   #76
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Default Re: Build Guide for Teens

those can overclock really well around 3.5-3.8
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Old 01-14-2010, 04:25 PM   #77
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Default Re: Build Guide for Teens

Quote:
With today's modern websites, you need something like the intel atom at the very least. That's roughly the equivalent of a 3.5ghz pentium 4. Even then, it won't be very snappy. My 2.8ghz celeron struggles with standard quality youtube, and maxes out on standard operating system processes, even with linux.
You're 2.8Ghz celeron maxes out on standard OS processes under linux?! I'm afraid you haven't set something up right there! I've got a custom hacked debian distro running the old 2.4 kernel that ran smoothly enough (you wouldn't notice the difference as a static web server with a few users) on an original pentium at 90Mhz. No, that one can't run youtube - but I have run Gentoo on a 1Ghz PIII which displayed youtube videos without an issue. Hi def content would be a different story - but an atom 330 is enough to handle 1080p smoothly from what I've read.

Not sure how you arrived at the atom being equivalent to a 3.5Ghz pentium 4 either, there's a heck of a lot of atom processors and each one performs very differently...

Quote:
How can a PSU cause my parts to overheat?
It won't necessarily cause your parts to overheat - that's not the only way they can fail!

Put it this way, the PSU is responsible for taking 240V AC (or whatever it is where you live) down to the 12V DC, 5V DC etc. that your components need to work. If something goes wrong in the PSU it's not unknown for it to break in a way that means it sends mains current DIRECTLY to your delicate components. A component that expects 12V DC or less (pretty much all of them) that is suddenly fed mains current is NOT going to be happy, and WILL break. That may be the least of your problems if it then goes on to start a fire.

A situation like the above is rare - but can happen, and is far more likely to happen if you choose a rubbish PSU that's made to lower standards. That's why most people here recommend spending a bit more to greatly lower the chances of something like the above happening!
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Old 01-14-2010, 04:47 PM   #78
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Default Re: Build Guide for Teens

Quote:
Originally Posted by VINMAN46 View Post
those can overclock really well around 3.5-3.8
good to know -- i'll keep that in mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by berry120 View Post
You're 2.8Ghz celeron maxes out on standard OS processes under linux?! I'm afraid you haven't set something up right there! I've got a custom hacked debian distro running the old 2.4 kernel that ran smoothly enough (you wouldn't notice the difference as a static web server with a few users) on an original pentium at 90Mhz. No, that one can't run youtube - but I have run Gentoo on a 1Ghz PIII which displayed youtube videos without an issue. Hi def content would be a different story - but an atom 330 is enough to handle 1080p smoothly from what I've read.

Not sure how you arrived at the atom being equivalent to a 3.5Ghz pentium 4 either, there's a heck of a lot of atom processors and each one performs very differently...


It won't necessarily cause your parts to overheat - that's not the only way they can fail!

Put it this way, the PSU is responsible for taking 240V AC (or whatever it is where you live) down to the 12V DC, 5V DC etc. that your components need to work. If something goes wrong in the PSU it's not unknown for it to break in a way that means it sends mains current DIRECTLY to your delicate components. A component that expects 12V DC or less (pretty much all of them) that is suddenly fed mains current is NOT going to be happy, and WILL break. That may be the least of your problems if it then goes on to start a fire.

A situation like the above is rare - but can happen, and is far more likely to happen if you choose a rubbish PSU that's made to lower standards. That's why most people here recommend spending a bit more to greatly lower the chances of something like the above happening!
Ohhh, so how can you tell the difference between a good one and a bad one? The Diablotek definitely doesn't seem bad, or cheaply made.
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Old 01-14-2010, 06:07 PM   #79
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Funny enough, PSU's are one of the few things where you can generally pin reliability and performance on price. There are few exceptions like Ultra and OCZ which are good quality at a low price. Plus it also comes from experience. Most of us here have owned many different brands of PSU and can vouch for their good or bad performance. So it's very hard to just "know" what is a good PSU even after reading reviews. Read a lot of reviews rather than just look at the egg rating or number of stars as I've seen some very poor or worthless reviews; Or even some that give the product too much credit. A common PSU review flaw is "it's not modular so I took an egg off". Which can slander the name of a perfectly good product. For a first build, it's probably a good idea to ask others if it's a reputably good brand or not.

I can't say from experience that they are bad, but I'm no fan of DiabloTek PSU's at all. Read plenty of fire/smoke-stories.
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Old 01-15-2010, 06:51 AM   #80
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Not sure how you arrived at the atom being equivalent to a 3.5Ghz pentium 4 either, there's a heck of a lot of atom processors and each one performs very differently...!
Most atoms you see will be either an N270 or N280. I ran my Northwood processor against an N270 and got utterly destroyed. To match him, I would have needed half again the processing power that I had. Now that I think about it, though, the northwood pentiums had twice the bus speed and four times the L2 cache compared to the celeron, so my guestimate is a skewed quite a bit.

And yes, there are linux distros that won't use my whole cpu, but the one that TS using certainly does. Xubuntu runs better, but it still bottlenecks at the CPU.
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