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Old 06-06-2012, 03:28 PM   #31
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Default Re: Why I think Macs are overhyped

Mac fanboys are nothing compared to Windows fanboys. I don't think mac users are are bad as the windows fanboy community imagines they are.
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Old 06-07-2012, 04:01 AM   #32
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Default Re: Why I think Macs are overhyped

Mac = overpriced Hardware ... (just my opinion)
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Old 06-07-2012, 09:34 AM   #33
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Default Re: Why I think Macs are overhyped

I've held off of a serious answer until now on the basis of the usual Mac vs. PC thread situation, augmented by an utter moron who goes by the name of deathknight, but here it is. I'm tempted to just copy this into any future thread that may (will) arise on the topic...

If I go down to the local supermarket and buy some cookies, I'm presented with a wealth of choices. I'm presented with the supermarket's own brand pre-boxed, the ones fresh from the bakery, the "taste the difference" range and whatever else might be there. All are different, all probably taste different, and there's a sometimes large difference in price from one lot of 5 cookies to the next. They range from around 70p to 2.00.

Now you might think here (apart from that I should stop going on about cookies) that the 1 ones are better than the 70p ones, and likewise all the way up to the 2 variety. But this isn't necessarily the case. How "good" the cookie is is subjective - the 2 variety may well contain loads of chocolate which increases the cost. Bob likes loads of chocolate in his cookies, so thinks they're worthwhile, but Jane doesn't; she therefore wouldn't think about spending more for cookies she likes less. It makes no sense to her.

Now lets turn the focus back to this debate. The fact of the matter is, most equivalently spec'd Macs cost more when compared to an off the shelf PC. If you will, they're the 2 cookies, for whatever reason.

So it comes down to this - do the differences in Macs outweigh the disadvantage of a higher price point?

For some, they may not like those differences at all - the "extra chocolate" in the cookie is a turn off, so there's no way they'd buy a Mac even if they were the same price, or perhaps less. That's all well and good, for the sake of openness I'd probably place myself in that category.

However, for the sake of others that prefer Macs for whatever reason (and yes, some of those reasons may be subjective in themselves) they're then faced with the decision as to whether the higher price point makes those differences worth it. Some decide it is worth it, some decide it's not.

And in reality, that's all that can objectively be said about a very subjective line of arguments and decisions. I've said it before and I'll say it now - I think the reason Mac vs. PC threads always break down like they do is because different features carry different weights of importance to different people. Some decide they must have a laptop that looks the part, others decide that's not worth shelling out for and scoff at those who "waste money" doing so. Some decide that MacOS is legendary and Windows sucks, others decide it's the other way round, others don't care. Some like the comparatively huge touchpad / gestures etc. on the Macbook Pro, others hate it because they keep tapping it accidentally and setting of gestures at a whim... I could go on.

And that's before we get to all the other points that factor in like it depends what software you use (some only work on one platform) what tasks you'll be performing (Mac as a developer platform for anything other than O-C is going downhill, but Logic on the other hand is only available for Mac) what you're expected to use (I've seen uni courses where you have to have one or the other) and what you're used to historically.

In my view, the debate is so broad it's almost not worth having anyway. What's better, a Ferrari or a Land Rover? A sofa or a bed? An apple or an orange?
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Old 06-07-2012, 03:18 PM   #34
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Default Re: Why I think Macs are overhyped

Quote:
Originally Posted by berry120 View Post
I've held off of a serious answer until now on the basis of the usual Mac vs. PC thread situation, augmented by an utter moron who goes by the name of deathknight, but here it is. I'm tempted to just copy this into any future thread that may (will) arise on the topic...

If I go down to the local supermarket and buy some cookies, I'm presented with a wealth of choices. I'm presented with the supermarket's own brand pre-boxed, the ones fresh from the bakery, the "taste the difference" range and whatever else might be there. All are different, all probably taste different, and there's a sometimes large difference in price from one lot of 5 cookies to the next. They range from around 70p to 2.00.

Now you might think here (apart from that I should stop going on about cookies) that the 1 ones are better than the 70p ones, and likewise all the way up to the 2 variety. But this isn't necessarily the case. How "good" the cookie is is subjective - the 2 variety may well contain loads of chocolate which increases the cost. Bob likes loads of chocolate in his cookies, so thinks they're worthwhile, but Jane doesn't; she therefore wouldn't think about spending more for cookies she likes less. It makes no sense to her.

Now lets turn the focus back to this debate. The fact of the matter is, most equivalently spec'd Macs cost more when compared to an off the shelf PC. If you will, they're the 2 cookies, for whatever reason.

So it comes down to this - do the differences in Macs outweigh the disadvantage of a higher price point?

For some, they may not like those differences at all - the "extra chocolate" in the cookie is a turn off, so there's no way they'd buy a Mac even if they were the same price, or perhaps less. That's all well and good, for the sake of openness I'd probably place myself in that category.

However, for the sake of others that prefer Macs for whatever reason (and yes, some of those reasons may be subjective in themselves) they're then faced with the decision as to whether the higher price point makes those differences worth it. Some decide it is worth it, some decide it's not.

And in reality, that's all that can objectively be said about a very subjective line of arguments and decisions. I've said it before and I'll say it now - I think the reason Mac vs. PC threads always break down like they do is because different features carry different weights of importance to different people. Some decide they must have a laptop that looks the part, others decide that's not worth shelling out for and scoff at those who "waste money" doing so. Some decide that MacOS is legendary and Windows sucks, others decide it's the other way round, others don't care. Some like the comparatively huge touchpad / gestures etc. on the Macbook Pro, others hate it because they keep tapping it accidentally and setting of gestures at a whim... I could go on.

And that's before we get to all the other points that factor in like it depends what software you use (some only work on one platform) what tasks you'll be performing (Mac as a developer platform for anything other than O-C is going downhill, but Logic on the other hand is only available for Mac) what you're expected to use (I've seen uni courses where you have to have one or the other) and what you're used to historically.

In my view, the debate is so broad it's almost not worth having anyway. What's better, a Ferrari or a Land Rover? A sofa or a bed? An apple or an orange?
Whilst I agree generally with you that many of the reasons people buy a particular computer product are subjective .
I would like to challenge one of the most common stereotypes pedaled about apple products particularly laptops .The sterotype is that "you can get a simillar spec laptop for a lot less" .
take this following comparison
Hp Pavillion g6-1369ea(linky to amazon)
Intel core i5 2.4ghz
6gb ddr3 ram
640gb hard drive

Apple macbook pro 13"(linky to apple)
Intel core i52.4ghz
4gb ddr3 ram
500gb hard drive
Note I am ignoring the difference between 15" and 13" because really the relation to performance is non existent

Hp 450 the apple 1000 . Clearly a 550 difference . whilst the specification of the hardware componenets is the same One could even point out the fact that you get slightly more ram and hard drive with the hp . you are not making a valid comparison in my eyes because the mac book pro enclosure is made from aluminum wheras the HP machine is made from polycarbonate and so it is obvious to me that the macbook pro is going to last longer than the hp machine just by virtue of the material it is built form . the enclosure is part of the specification and the end product is it not ?

However if you look at something like the dell xps ultrabook which does have a top cover milled from aluminum with a carbon fibre bottom enclosure you will see that apple actually isn't as expensive as it first appears as the 13" ultrabooks start at 949 . now in choosing between the dell xps ultrabook and an apple macbook air or pro you would obviously have a lot of subjective issues to decide such as which one looks better , which brand you prefer , mac os vs windows , do you enjoy multitouch ?. To put it as you did the dell and the macbook are both 2 cookies however the dell are triple chocolate and the apple are just choc chip .so everyone can be catered for

peoples problem with apple is that they do not do budget machines and in my view they mistakenly compare apple products to budget offerings from other manufacturers which just isn't a fair comparison .

for many people the 1000 for a macbook pro or macbook air is just too much to justify spending on a laptop however the way I see it after my experiences buying a 400 dell laptop that last 18 months is that if this macbook lasts me 3 or 4 years then I will have got good value for money from it as I would have had to buy 2 cheaper laptops to last 4 years .

I personally however do not have a problem with people who buy a laptop that isn't a macbook for example my parents have a lenovo thinkpad and my sister has a toshiba laptop . I haven't got a problem with these laptops however both my parents and sister realise that the macbook I own is built to last whereas the Toshiba laptop in particular feels a but cheap and not as well built it still does what my sister wants .
the people I have a problem with are the people who say the 450 hp laptop above is better than the macbook in every way when clearly there is no way on this earth a polycarbonate laptop is better built than a laptop whose main enclosure is milled from a single piece of aluminum .

Another thing that I enjoy about apple that I dont think is subjective is the customer service you get . Surely everybody if they had their way would have high street retail stores run by the manufacturer of their product where they could take it to get repairs if something went wrong ? that to me is not subjective that would be desirable for everyone .
And that fact that even if i moved to house (even to another country) I could take my macbook pro to the apple store wherever I lived if there was a problem with it to me seems like a no brainer . everyone would want this in an ideal world .
I mean take my recent example of the excellent customer service offered by apple . My macbook pro suffered a case of acidental damage so I claimed for the repairs of the damage from my insurance company . My insurance company arranged the laptop to be collected from me and repaird . Long story short the laptop came back with some substandard quality repairs . The new display was not aligned correctly and the glass on the new display was bulging around the webcam so I took the laptop to the apple store and because my insurer had used an authorsed apple repair center the genius at the apple store was able to arrange for the part to be replaced instore . Next day I collected my laptop after the repair had been carried out and it was good as new ?
Its just a fact that if I had bought any other manufacturers laptop in this situation I would have either been stuck in a bitter battle with my insurance company to get them to carry out the repairs to my satisfaction or I would have been stuck returning it to the manufacturer which would have taken considerably longer than the apple store took to replace the screen on my macbook .

in conclusion I agree that some reasons for purchasing macs are subjective however one of the key reasons I bought a macbook pro which is the build quality and the high street retail stores where you can get support are in an ideal world things that everybody would desire from their laptops . Its a shame that apple are the only manufacturer who offer this because I would like more variety as to computers I can buy but now that I am used to being able to take my product to the apple shop whenever something goes wrong I will probably only ever buy apple laptops .I am not really a mac os fanboy I still use my windows desktop for example and even though i think the macbook looks good the looking good on its own doesnt justify the cost . For me a lot of the cost of the macbook is justified by the apple store
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Old 06-07-2012, 06:29 PM   #35
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Default Re: Why I think Macs are overhyped

In terms of specification - I simplified the matter slightly and was talking about hardware specification, sorry if that wasn't clear.

You mention build quality as one primary factor that I didn't cater for, this is fair enough when we're talking about laptops - but is it really a big thing in desktops that are rarely ever moved? Taking it back to laptops, even the necessity for that build quality does again come back down to subjectivity, and I'd argue this statement:

Quote:
...and so it is obvious to me that the macbook pro is going to last longer than the hp machine just by virtue of the material it is built form
...is untrue. As a matter of fact I have a 400 HP laptop that was bought back in 2007, polycarbonate case and all. I take reasonable care of it (I don't bash it around but don't wrap it up in cotton wool either) and it's still doing just fine with heavy use four years later.

However, even if you ignore that point and assume that the difference in build quality *does* mean it'll definitely last longer, you're back to the subjective decision as to whether that's worth it. I know many people who purchase a new laptop every couple of years a matter of course, just because the work they do means the time they save with the updated specification makes it worth it. I know others who buy them as desktop replacements (because of the smaller footprint) and never move them. I also know people working in environments where neither a polycarbonate laptop nor an aluminium one would stand a chance beyond a couple of days (use in heavy rain or otherwise harsh conditions.) Are any of those groups really going to hugely benefit from the additional build quality?

Quote:
Another thing that I enjoy about apple that I dont think is subjective is the customer service you get . Surely everybody if they had their way would have high street retail stores run by the manufacturer of their product where they could take it to get repairs if something went wrong ? that to me is not subjective that would be desirable for everyone .
Good customer service is of course great, but not something limited to Apple - I've heard good and bad stories of all types of stores, Apple included. In one case a friend of mine was certainly waiting for longer than day on such a claim through the store, in fact multiply that by 14 or so.

Essentially what you're saying here is that all Apple stores have great customer service, and all non-Apple stores have awful customer service. If that were the case then that would certainly be a non-subjective advantage, but that's a very bold claim to make...
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Old 06-07-2012, 10:51 PM   #36
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In terms of specification - I simplified the matter slightly and was talking about hardware specification, sorry if that wasn't clear.
Oh i knew what you where implying however in my view you cant make a comparison based solely on processor and ram when it comes to laptops you have to look at the build quality and materials make up a big part of the build quality . This is why I said if you where comparing the dell xps ultrabook and the macbook pro then you are making a reasonably fair comparison because both are made form the same material .

Quote:
Originally Posted by berry120 View Post
You mention build quality as one primary factor that I didn't cater for, this is fair enough when we're talking about laptops - but is it really a big thing in desktops that are rarely ever moved? Taking it back to laptops, even the necessity for that build quality does again come back down to subjectivity, and I'd argue this statement:
I guess when we are talking about desktops it might not matter as much . as a matter of fact I think I will probably always build my own desktop just because of how much money you spend . However there is again no real frame of reference for price when it comes to apple desktops because the i mac is an all in one enclosure that is not offered by many other companies out there at the moment .As for the mac pro I haven't really looked at its specs/prices comparatively in any detail with other machines because either way a machine of that power is going to be out of my price range

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...is untrue. As a matter of fact I have a 400 HP laptop that was bought back in 2007, polycarbonate case and all. I take reasonable care of it (I don't bash it around but don't wrap it up in cotton wool either) and it's still doing just fine with heavy use four years later.
so if your polycarbonate hp laptop has lasted 4 years how long do you think a machine built of aluminum would last you ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by berry120 View Post
However, even if you ignore that point and assume that the difference in build quality *does* mean it'll definitely last longer, you're back to the subjective decision as to whether that's worth it. I know many people who purchase a new laptop every couple of years a matter of course, just because the work they do means the time they save with the updated specification makes it worth it. I know others who buy them as desktop replacements (because of the smaller footprint) and never move them. I also know people working in environments where neither a polycarbonate laptop nor an aluminium one would stand a chance beyond a couple of days (use in heavy rain or otherwise harsh conditions.) Are any of those groups really going to hugely benefit from the additional build quality?
I guess the user who changes machines every 2 years as a matter of course will not really directly benefit from that increased build quality as they will get rid of the machine before that becomes a factor . However in my view one thing they will benefit from is the fact that as buyers on the second hand market recognise that some machines have better build quality and last longer etc the item will depreciate less in the 2 years that they own it . just like some (predominately German) brands of cars depreciate less because of the initial quality of engineering ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by berry120 View Post
Good customer service is of course great, but not something limited to Apple - I've heard good and bad stories of all types of stores, Apple included. In one case a friend of mine was certainly waiting for longer than day on such a claim through the store, in fact multiply that by 14 or so.
you of course hear good and bad stories everywhere you go with customer service . But personal customer experience of good customer service has to be one of the bigger influences when it comes to subjective purchasing decisions . I wasnt saying that every time such a thing occured I would get my macbook back next day . If they hadnt had the part in stock I might have been waiting a little longer but the fact remains that having that handy high street location is convenient for me to collect my laptop when its repaired rather than trusting some courier firm with the laptop . Furthermore when I sent the laptop off to my insurer I was waiting for the part to be ordered as well however compared with the apple store ordering the part my wait would have been 2 days shorter at the very least (1 day to ship the laptop to them , 1 day for them to ship the laptop back) . You cant deny that even in the worst case scenario the apple store could have the laptop repaired and returned to the user in a shorter space of time . However if on this occasion I have bought a hp laptop lets say , what high street location would I have had to take the substandard repaired laptop to ? If i was claiming that the replacement part provided by hp was faulty I would have to send it of to a hp authorized service centre which is takes more time than making an appointment at the genius bar the same or next day ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by berry120 View Post
Essentially what you're saying here is that all Apple stores have great customer service, and all non-Apple stores have awful customer service. If that were the case then that would certainly be a non-subjective advantage, but that's a very bold claim to make...
I am aware that there will be times when apple customer service doesnt meet the customers expectations however the policy that was in place that I benefited from which was having the faulty apple supplied part changed in a high street location is one that no other manufacturer currently offers . that policy is not a matter of opinion regarding customer service it is a policy that exists and that in theory should be applied uniformly across all apple stores . without doing mystery shopping research I couldn't say if it was or not but in theory at least that makes apple better at customer service than any other laptop manufacturer . Soley because they provide a convenient high street location where you can go and get repairs to their product carried out .
Consider this situation for a moment if you would . Say I bought a dell laptop and it came with a faulty display module . How would I go about getting a repair/replacement under the warranty? I would have to send it back to dell who would then assess the problem and carry out said repair or replace the item and send that back to you .
Now say I bought a macbook air and it too came with a faulty display module . I could take that same macbook air (irrespective of where i bought it from) to any apple store and have the repair or replacement carried out in store . additionally I wouldn't have to mess about with any saying of postage costs that then in the future you have to claim reimbursement for .
Its just a plain fact that apple have their stores whereas other companies like hp and dell etc etc dont . of course that's part of the reason why apple may be slightly more expensive .you have to then decide if that desirable attribute is worth spending the extra or if you'd rather wait whilst your laptop was in shipping to the manufacturer
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Old 06-08-2012, 09:47 AM   #37
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Default Re: Why I think Macs are overhyped

Again, you make good points - but you also correctly point out that for the things you mention, whether it's worth spending the extra money or not is a subjective decision (even if the points themselves offer a non-subjective increase in quality, which I'm still not convinced by.)

Which brings me back to my original point - some people will decide that the things you mention are worthwhile, others will decide that they're not, and those factors (and others) will all come into play when deciding what they should purchase.

To say "Macs are better than PCs", or vice versa, is therefore a false statement in that broad a context *whatever* you put behind it. You can argue that a purchase for you, in your particular situation was the best decision, but making the claim one is universally better than the other is just false.

Hence why, in reality, I think these threads are somewhat futile
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Old 06-08-2012, 03:56 PM   #38
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Default Re: Why I think Macs are overhyped

Pointless debate is pointless, I'm telling you...


It's like debating Religion, Politics, Favorite kind of Cheese...
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Old 06-08-2012, 06:13 PM   #39
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Again, you make good points - but you also correctly point out that for the things you mention, whether it's worth spending the extra money or not is a subjective decision (even if the points themselves offer a non-subjective increase in quality, which I'm still not convinced by.)

Which brings me back to my original point - some people will decide that the things you mention are worthwhile, others will decide that they're not, and those factors (and others) will all come into play when deciding what they should purchase.

To say "Macs are better than PCs", or vice versa, is therefore a false statement in that broad a context *whatever* you put behind it. You can argue that a purchase for you, in your particular situation was the best decision, but making the claim one is universally better than the other is just false.

Hence why, in reality, I think these threads are somewhat futile
How can you not be convinced that having the retail locations that apple have is a non subjective factor . I think in an ideal world everyone would love for the manufacturer of their laptop to have a handy retail location like apple does that offers the support that the apple stores do . The fact remains that not as many people are prepared to pay for this in the origonal purchase price of the product .

My problem is not with people who decide that the extra money that they would spend on the product is not within their budget or not justifiable (which as we have discussed is not actually that much compared with a machine that actually IS comparable ) . My problem is with people who will not buy a mac just because it is a mac .

I can and have made and substantiated the claim which I have demonstrated that the after sales support you get from the apple store is second to none and is universally better . I honestly believe if you took a survey of people who bought a brand new laptop in the past 6 to 12 months asking if people would like a high street location they can take their machine to in the event if fails and needs repair under the warranty . the results of that survey would speak for themselves . We all want it just not everyone is prepared the high overheards to provide it . That reasoning is not a problem for me . The problem lies in people who say I wont buy a mac because they are rubbish or I can get a better machine for less .
or because macs are apparently overpriced when as we have discovered when your buying a comparable product they are not as overpriced as they first appear to be .

As I have said previously I am not a mac or a pc fanboy and when it comes to desktops I am actually a fan boy of build your own for various reasons but when it comes to laptops At the moment apple provide the only high street retail locations for warranty repairs .it to me seems a no brainer that everyone wants that but some people either cant actually afford the cost of an apple laptop or they cant justiify the cost . If dell started opening high street retail stores (at the expense of some of their profit margain or compettetive prices) I would consider the xps ultrabook as a useful and valid competitor to the mbp but for me the fact that you pay near mbp prices but in the event of a warranty failure you have to ship the device back to dell and cant actually demonstrate the fault with the product first hand to a technician makes buying that notebook unatractive . given that you could bootcamp the mac with windows I fail to see any valid reason why anyone should or would buy the dell machine over a mbp or a macbook air
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Old 06-09-2012, 12:06 PM   #40
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Pointless debate is pointless, I'm telling you...

It's like debating Religion, Politics, Favorite kind of Cheese...
While at least this has moved to a more intellectual debate there is still no point. Both sides can be polite and cordial but it's never going to come to an agreement.
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