The "Non-Political" Political Thread

[Hameister]

You ask...."Whats everyone elses view on gay rights?"

Simple, I couldn't care less what anyone does in the privacy of their own home. Get married, don't get married, do things that would turn my stomach, and I'm ok with all of it. I ask only one thing....stay out of my face. Don't force me to participate, don't try to make me out some kind of Nazi, because I choose to be repulsed by your life style.Don't insist via political correctness, that there is something wrong with me, if I choose to find your behavior unacceptable.

 

[MMM]

I don't understand why so many people put a 'dangerous' stigma on this word or ideal. Socialism works in many applications, such as Canada's healthcare system. It probably isn't applicable everywhere, but please stop dealing in absolutes. That's the biggest, the absolute biggest and most retarded @$$ problem with this country. You are either A, or you are B, so pick a side and lets fight!

The vast complexity of this world and everything contained within cannot be lumped into 1 of 2 options.

I did not mentioned socialism is a dangerous stigma, you did in your comment.

I just asked Hameister a question......

Me! I'm just a capitalist......I believe in if you want something in life then work hard for it and do not believe in having to give any thing to any one else, only if I choose to do so.

Yes I'm selfish at times and why not.... Every thing I have has been worked for by me, no hand outs from any one, I pay taxes as required by law.

 

[iPwn]

Sure it can...I'll take option A, because option B sucks, just look at Greece, Spain, and any number of other countries that have been handing out entitlements to it's people for years, and are now broke.

Margaret Thacher, was very correct when she said...."The problem with Socialism, is the fact that it's only a matter of time before the people with money, no longer have any, to support those that don't.

Besides, I thought this was supposed to be a "Non-Political" thread.

I think you misunderstood my post.

My main point was that when person A makes a comment, and the comment contains three red posters, two blue posters and then one yellow poster, it is disturbing when they are given the 'scarlet letter' of being a blue poster enthusiast and therefore a blue Nazi.

Re: "option A, because option B sucks"
The fact that you are only given two options should seriously set off some alarms for a purportedly "free" people. They both suck. "You can lose a hand, or you can lose a foot." The courtesy of being given an option doesn't make me feel better about what's about to happen.

Re: Entitlement
I get that, I really do. Socialism as an economic driving force is seriously flawed. It has a few applications though, such as basic human rights and needs. Examples being the Fire department, the road/highway system, those are good things to have.

Re: "Non-Political thread"
It is and I'm not attacking any party as outlined in OP, merely the 'system of absolutes' that all political systems seem to be holding near and dear.

Besides, I thought this was supposed to be a "Non-Political" thread.

Under our current President, we have corporate bail outs, banking bail outs, government sponsored programs that will give you money to buy a new car, if you buy the one the government approves of. I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point. As far as I'm concerned, we're already too far to the left.

How's that shoe taste?

Bail outs are not new and a government sponsored program to stop global warming is a brilliant idea. More governments should do it and more aggressively.

I did not mentioned socialism is a dangerous stigma, you did in your comment.

I just asked Hameister a question......

Me! I'm just a capitalist......I believe in if you want something in life then work hard for it and do not believe in having to give any thing to any one else, only if I choose to do so.

Yes I'm selfish at times and why not.... Every thing I have has been worked for by me, no hand outs from any one, I pay taxes as required by law.

Fair enough, the short comment was wrongly interpreted by me.

I believe that capitalism is a great model for an economy, but our specific application lacks some checks and balances. When the government is forced to spend billions of dollars to help a business because they are 'too big to fail', we might have too many of our eggs in one basket, and there might exist a situation that was to be prevented by existing laws.

However you need to tax this wealth generating public sector in order to provide education , essential services and socialist measures such as the welfare state to provide for those who cant provide for themselves the most vulnerable people in society.

Constitutionally, you are not supposed to be taxed in the first place. The Constitution defined income by money from business gains, not labor. The 16th amendment changed that.
A model that focused solely on the profit of business wouldn't prevent the super rich class, but it would appropriately tax business gains and not rely on the backs of the working class. Gains would be more slowly earned by the business owner, but not choking either.

Sure some people take advantage of the welfare state provisions

This exists because there are no checks and balances, no auditing, just a guaranteed check each month. This is rampant all over government, where checks are written and no questions are asked. NASA buys tons and tons of crap at the end of Uncle Sam's fiscal year (Sep 30th) to ensure the budget isn't reduced. No auditing, no questions, just another check for same or more.

If you let the free market reign supreme you would have much much deeper class divisions than you currently have amongst other things , it might even be reasonable to suggest a completely unregulated free market would result in slavery of some form

This doesn't already exist?

 

[muz]

Wow, how was I able to predict your response? Amazing! I must be psychic....no, just lived a lot longer, that's all.


Capitalism was a very bad thing, and Socialism was a very good thing. In college I believed that Socialism was the key to ending poverty, world hunger, and wars.

You young muz, are already making statements such as..."I have 2 jobs just so that I can pay off the debt that I accumulated at uni . I have no intention of ever taking a handout from the state in my life".

See, you are already showing core signs of self reliance, and responsibility. I didn't come to accept that until I was in my early 30s. See what a jump you already have on me?

Yessir! You'll end up a first class Conservative in about 25 years, and you won't even know how you got there.....but I will.

Have a good evening.

See your posts are still ringing with the patronizing tone a lot of people your age group tend to use because you think your experience of life is going to be the same for everyone and because of your age your somehow qualified to say how everyone life will turn out the only standard you are judging things by though is your life , your not using an objective standard to weigh up what will happen

I have never said capitalism is a very bad thing and socialism is the way and the word , I never would say that it is my deeply held view that a type of responsible capitalism works . Those that can work should work to support themselves and their family , Though everyone wont feel this way I feel prouder about that fact that I have 2 jobs that are not held in high esteem rather than sitting around taking handouts , I can work so I should work . Those that cant find work or physically cant work should of course be supported by the state be that temporarily whilst they find work or be that permanently because they are disabled . Everyone regardless of means should have free access to healthcare and education and other essential services such as police and fire services .I also share what is perhaps a realist view and that is that the taxation should also be used to secure the state and so should contribute towards the military and other security services .

Whilst I myself would love to be self reliant all of my life I understand that there are some who may not be as fortunate as me , there at times will be some who are driven by their desire to work but cannot find work , seeing what that is like first hand when my dad was out of work for a short period of time I believe and always will believe the state should provide for people in that boat , nothing will change that experience that I have had and who knows might have first hand one day

Your comment about me ending up a first class conservative in 25 years is speculative nonsense backed by absolutely zero evidence , are you saying every voter above the age of 40/45 is a conservative because that's a pretty bold statement to be making with no actual evidence to back it up .
And in all honesty over here in the UK even the most conservative of the mainstream parties is pretty far left by comparison with the US and supports the welfare state idea and free healthcare for everyone etc etc , there is no mainstream appetite in this county for what some might call proper conservatism .

You ask...."Whats everyone elses view on gay rights?"

Simple, I couldn't care less what anyone does in the privacy of their own home. Get married, don't get married, do things that would turn my stomach, and I'm ok with all of it. I ask only one thing....stay out of my face. Don't force me to participate, don't try to make me out some kind of Nazi, because I choose to be repulsed by your life style.Don't insist via political correctness, that there is something wrong with me, if I choose to find your behavior unacceptable.

This I think exemplifies one of the issues which is that people have a view on other peoples sexuality and resulting lifestyles when it just does not concern them .

However on the other hand of course everyone is entitled to a view about whatever they wish to hold views about .

I however do agree that whatever your view on it is everyone should be entitled to the same private and family life that everyone else would want and should be afforded regardless of your sexuality , unfortunately not everyone is as sensible as you are and rather than thinking it is repulsive behavior but not worrying about it because you are not forced to participate some people actively go out of their way to try and make life hard for gay people .



In response to iPWN perhaps slavery does exist in some way , some theorists would argue absoloutly slavery in some form does still exist . I would say that depends on what definition you give to slavery . I dont feel enslaved and yet in some respects I have very little choice about some things in my life . I dont however see them restrictions in my day to day life I just get on with working and enjoying my free time . Others perhaps would labor over those restrictions and argue that they feel enslaved by them . I feel life is already to short to be worrying about them .

 

[Hameister]

Look muz, I've heard this all before, "everyone should have access to free health care, free education, ... "

Free everything, all kinds of entitlements, yes, it all sounds wonderful, except that nothing is free, nothing worthwhile is free, everything needs to be paid for, and that's where you young ideologues seem to fall off the political cliff. Like I said before, wait until you've worked hard for years, and some one wants you to pay for them, because they feel they are entitled to something for free. See if you feel the same way then.

Sorry if I sound patronizing to you, that's not my intent. It's just that I have no interest in continuing to write walls of text, when I have the sure and certain knowledge that neither of us is going to change the other's mind.

It looks like we agree on the homosexual issues. Got anything else you'd like to debate?

 

[muz]

Look muz, I've heard this all before, "everyone should have access to free health care, free education, ... "

Free everything, all kinds of entitlements, yes, it all sounds wonderful, except that nothing is free, nothing worthwhile is free, everything needs to be paid for, and that's where you young ideologues seem to fall off the political cliff. Like I said before, wait until you've worked hard for years, and some one wants you to pay for them, because they feel they are entitled to something for free. See if you feel the same way then.

Sorry if I sound patronizing to you, that's not my intent. It's just that I have no interest in continuing to write walls of text, when I have the sure and certain knowledge that neither of us is going to change the other's mind.

It looks like we agree on the homosexual issues. Got anything else you'd like to debate?

We in the Uk have free healthcare free education etc etc and we are not on the brink of political or economic collapse . Or at least not any closer to it than you are in the US with a healthcare system that only those of certain financial means can afford . Healthcare in this country is not means tested,everybody regardless of their means gets provided with essential care and all sides of the political spectrum accept that the NHS in the UK is here to stay so perhaps when I grow up I will be influenced by what I have always known whereas you have always known the American way of doing healthcare where only those well off can afford it ant those otherwise are screwed . and the new changes to you are rubbish , usually what happens when you get to a certain age you only know what you have always known and actively resist change .

Nobody here "likes" paying taxes but where if anywhere in the developed world do people enjoy paying taxes its just a fact of life , If you want to go and life in a village in Africa where you dont pay taxes good look with your life,good look educating your children , good look getting a police force to come and protect you when someone is trying to kill you , good look driving down that road to the shops , good look getting a loan to buy something when you want it . Unfortunately you have to just pay them and get on with it if you want the essential services provided by the state . Whats the alternative privatized police and fire authorities ?
I dont know why you are labeling me as a young idealist . the NHS in this country was not founded by or out of some silly young idealist dream it was common sense politics which works and has been proven to work for years sure there are issues with it , it is not perfect but for the majority of people it works .

Your statements however are not evidenced you seem to think in years I will turn bitter I say this , In my years of need when I am old and require care in this country I will be looked after by the state and will if anything be more liberal thinking there should be more resources to look after those like me .

Its a fact of life in the UK that the taxpayer pays for the NHS and the free education . If I didn't like It I would not spend the rest of my life living here I would move to somewhere where there wasn't free healthcare for everyone etc etc

Of course you have worked for years so I should just defer to your authority . except I refuse to because age does not always mean that you are right or your politics ideas or philosophies are always going to be accurate or correct or even applicable across the Atlantic .



International affairs is another one that interests me particularly as someone who does not have the vote however is learned in international law . The war in Iraq I think I have we have been there too many times , I spent half a year at university looking at the law of international conflict centered mostly around Iraq so I could discuss it all day but its old news now . I would rather focus more on what Is happening at the moment . What do you make of the situation in Syria and what should your ideal presidential candidate do about it if at all anything , And in the longer run what should the response be to the Iranian enrichment program and the reasonable risk that Iran could proliferate nuclear weapons ?

 

[Hameister]

Gad, I love the way you keep referring to "free" healthcare, as though no one is paying for it.

I'll let your statement sum it all up, so we can end this pointless discussion and move on..."In my years of need when I am old and require care in this country I will be looked after by the state and will if anything be more liberal thinking there should be more resources to look after those like me." Gotcha, I understand your requirements.

In my years of need, when I am old, and require care, I will have the care I need. I will have the best health care in the world. People come to the United States from all over the world seeking our health care here. I will have this care because I worked hard for it. Because I provided for it for myself and my family. I felt no sense of entitlement for it. I paid taxes all my life to support government sponsored Medicare, and Medicaid for those in need of it. I feel I have done enough. Now, let's put that to rest.

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Syria -- Let them kill each other. If Britain, and/or the U.S. gets involved for genuine humanitarian reasons, the Syrian people we fought and died for, will thank us today, and still be looking to kill us as infidels tomorrow. Let them kill each other, they've been doing it for thousands of years, and are experts at it.

 

[MMM]

Now I will stir the pot a bit.
You get nothing for free in life.... No free education, health or any thing else.
We all pay taxes and it is the taxes that pay for your services.... Fact.

Understand what you are talking about.

 

[muz]

I understand fully what I am talking about ,you could not be as educated as me yet not understand a simple bit of economics . I refer to it as free because the healthcare is free to those at the time of need , however Just like all of the other public services we need police , fire , military , emergency relief etc etc it is paid for by the tax payer in the long run

Hemeister I understand yet deplore you views on the whole "free" healthcare debate however moving on to another essential service provided by tax money , Emergency disaster relief


Look right now at what is going on in the east coast of your country with the approach of hurricane sandy . When the storm has passed who do you think should pay for the rebuilding , the rescue operations , the logistics of cleaning up the mess .
Should the individuals of those effected communities respond by cleaning up the mess and footing the bill themselves ?
Or should you have all of the resources that will be provided by the department of defense , fema etc these resources that are paid for by all tax payers ?


With regards to Syria , I agree at the moment we should keep out of it not for the reasons you have expressed though . I am persuaded by precedent from the humanitarian operation in Bosnia that if there is a true humanitarian crisis as there was in Bosnia(widespread ethnic cleansing) there is a right for the rest of the world to react with a show of military force if necessary. some might argue there is a responsibility to act in cases of humanitarian crisis I do not know how far I am seduced by that though .

However in Syria it appears to me we have a civil war just as we did in Libya , and numerous other Arab countries in what is dubbed the Arab spring . Just as we did in Libya I think it is right that we perhaps do something to try and equalize the struggle (such as airstrikes disabling the Libyan air forces) and so if perhaps we should provide communications equipment and small arms to the opposition forces but at this moment in time anything beyond that would be overstepping the mark and becoming involved in what I see as a civil war . However I would not rule out future military action if for example Assad started to explicitly target civilian targets because then there would be a case to argue that we are looking at a humanitarian crisis .

of course your arrogant and prejudicial statement about them killing each other for thousands of years does not apply to America , because you have never had a civil war in your history , and of course an indigenous population was never persecuted and forcibly removed from parts of your country was it .Every state in the world has a bloody history it would rather shy away from .

What about Iran they are more interested in acting offensively against other countries as oppose to the internal struggle for power seen in Syria ?

 

[Hameister]

Ya know muz, up to now, I was willing to accept your condescending, often offensive language as youthful exuberance, but it is unbecoming, and starting to become offensive.

Comments like "you may not be as educated as me". What? Get off your high horse. You have no idea as regards my level of education. You simply feel that because you hold an opinion different than mine you are better educated. Ridiculous, and offensive. I have never spoken to you like that, and I don't expect you to speak to me that way. You express your views with the same passion I express mine, but I do not call you "arrogant". I'll be glad to respond to your questions, but only if you temper your remarks with the same respect I have shown you. If you feel you cannot do that, I have nothing more to say to you.

Now, do we continue or not?