Do computers need to be balanced?

[setishock]

My HP power pack for my dv6205us doesn't have a bead on the line nor inside the power pack itself. My two over 100 dollar PSU's do not have beads in the lines nor inside the PSU box itself. Ripple is almost unreadable on a scope and EMI from this device radiated or received is non-existent. One is a Aerocool and the other is an Antec.

I heard something about board makers getting some bad parts when their regular supplier could not keep up with demand. The alternate supplier shipped inferior grade components and they got used on some of the top name brand board makers products. Things like that happen every day. Nothing new. Granted some low end board makers will use cheap s**t to get by with. But they get bit in the butt when they run up on the kids at places like here and my place. Bad PR is bad for business.

Moving right along. Aviation devices are made to a higher standard that has nothing to do with desktop or any consumer level device. Comparison between the two is irrelevant.

I'm just not buying into the interference things you're going on about. Mainstream overclockers like the kids here are not stupid. They're not going to take a computer they spent their hard earned money on and try to set a new worlds record on how fast they made a 1.6 core2duo go. It's insane and they know it. And for everyday users all the things you say will make their computers run better is also irrelevant. If it was so important to have all those mods done to a system don't you thing some company would already be doing it? With all the systems I have built and the kids here have built, do you see any of us posting EMI interference issues?
It's been interesting talking back and forth with you but it has reached an end. I, like the kids here and at my place know what works and what doesn't.
Later,
setishock

 

[David Lindon]

To sum it up I think the best way to look at things is that the computers overall performance is only as fast as the slowest component

 

[2457]

"Moving right along. Aviation devices are made to a higher standard that has nothing to do with desktop or any consumer level device. Comparison between the two is irrelevant." ---> and they still are afraid of a simple computer or cell phone makeing an aircraft crash.


as I said too, and You too, these mods are not for the "avarage joe".

aaand.. may I ask how where You able to mesure EMI? (that does calls for some realy special things, like a well isolated place in first place...even videoton laboratory could not afford one, not to mention a proper oscope for the task...)

You have an O scope, go and mesure the lines when they are loaded.
//not by a resistor please... connect to the mobo//

allso a simple 20 mhz oscope will not do the trick, You need somethink that can work much much higher freqvency, most pollution will be way out of most commerical product bandwidht --> not mesureable with them.

Other "example" would be the usual BIOS monitor of power lines..
if Yours psu is not recieving interference and has enough juice, You should not see the rails change voltage.. //since the computer is "sitting allmost doing nothing" power consumption is allmost minimal, some of the changes in voltage are becouse the voltage monitor in BIOS is not accurate. But mostly those small changes are becouse of PSU getting interference and slightly changeing the oscillator freqvency, and with that, the output voltage changes slightly.//

If Your PSU has not ferrite bead, than You can test Your self how effective they are. Here You can buy 3 pin power cable for computer PSu wich has a ferrite bead. even the crappy bios monitor will let You see that 12v rail will not jump up/down thatmuch. It costs about 0.5 $us more than a regular cable. You can find it //I think// in allmost any industrial computer shop.
//since "avarage joe" users don't need them most resellers don't even keep them//

http://www.enermax.com/admin/pic/INFINITI-00-SLI.pdf

enermax psu. look at page 5.
They would not do it unless there would be benefit.

In hungary there are companys that specialise in these things. They all offer theyr own warranty on the products. Usualy they ship to factorys //in industrial enviroment where a computer needs to run long times it is not unusual to see them...//



Allso as I said, ferrite bead is found on all notebook/laptop chargers. Thats not a mistake.

I allso told that You won't find freezing computers do to EMI, or RFI, or trashy line voltage, digital signals are error corrected in 99% onder normal operation they will not crash becouse of something like this. But who said overclock is normal operation? Right.

I'm still not telling this is an absolute must have. I only post here again, becouse You state is useless. It is not.

http://computer.howstuffworks.com/question352.htm

this article is verry basic, but still tells You where to find ferrite beads on Yours computer. --> case is not enough as shielding. Thats why the are there. Yes its good, and filters enough, but it will be never clean.

I highly question Yours diploma if You think there is any circuit that has no noise. Usualy engeneers spend a realy hard time to elliminate noise, even thermal noise of simple resistors, its a basic rule that every component has at least SOME noise. As said earlyer, one by one none of them have effect. But combined effects are what mather.

anyway, I keep posting if You just quit saying these things are useless.
If You just agree that "they may have benefical effects, but surely not for most users" and.. quit saying to anything that "it has no EMI" I will not post here again thats sure. Only thing what do makes me have a hearth attack when someone questions the verry basics of electrnoic devices and states he is an aviation engeneer.
//
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_noise

a verry basic article of thermal noise. Don't forget, You have many components on just a simple motherboard...

quit saying "no EMI" or "no noise" exsist. They will allways be, thermal noise happens regardless of apply voltage, and every single components has its own. Just bringigng this up becouse it clearly shows You don't have much clue how stuff works. So I'm discussing this with someone who has no knowledge on the topic. //noise and interference, that is//

You can even USE the noise collected by a computer,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//dev/random

take a peek.



-->
"To sum it up I think the best way to look at things is that the computers overall performance is only as fast as the slowest component"

best answer to the original question, I think.

http://www.steward.com/techinfo/subsystems.html

scroll down to powersupplys to learn a bit.
basicly the ferrite bead at input ac line keeps the poewrsupply cleaner, and the ferrite beads at the dc output will help to get rid of emi/rfi signals that are cought INSIDE the computer case.

Still thinking I'm nuts? LOL.. go get a proper electronic cert. You will hear about these PROBLEMS more than You can imagine.

 

[Cabbs]

Hey 2457, do you have any before and after CPU-Z screen shots showing how these modifications affect overclocking?

 

[2457]

darn good idea.
//probably someone will tell they are all fake//


will get some if thats the last resort.
anyway, read the articles I searched, if You have common sense and verry basic understnding how a computer works You will definatly see my points.
That is (still).
1. these mods are not needed for avarage joe.
2. these mods are benefical to stability, performance, and overclock.


Anyway, for mr. aviation engineer:
http://www.directindustry.com/prod/...mi-filtered-d-sub-connector-35049-306717.html
http://www.directindustry.com/industrial-manufacturer/emi-filter-connector-78075.html
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16253021
http://www.electronics-manufacturers.com/info/electronic-components/emi-shielding-solutions.html

some links about EMI,
http://www.ieee.org/organizations/pubs/newsletters/emcs/summer01/pp_brench.htm

a link about mesureing EMI, I highly doubt any oscope can mesure up to say.. 3-4 ghz..

read the artices, You will find info in them about what kind of problems do they couse in COMPUTER systems,

allso I found some ugly site with a place where You can order EMI filtered connectors to enhance a bit normal connectors.

//about Yours PSU without ferrite bead, some are built into the connecting terminals

allso this aviaton engineer must earn good cash,
http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/usedequipment/hewlettpackard/oscilloscopes/54845a.htm

oscope is not suited to mesure EMI, but even this USED product can only go to 1,5 GHZ (come on.. computers make noise and EMI well over that) and costs $10,995.00...

other scopes
http://metersuperstore.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=TE1C

still none of them are good for this purpose, as any engineer should know, and do cost a bit...

obvious somewhere in Your story something is not quite right.

 

[alvino]

Lots of good points on how to maximize overclocking, but all this is pointless for the average consumer and even the average enthusiast. Unless you're that anal about every little bit of unefficiency in a PC...

 

[2457]

honestly I do agree with You.

And luckly some manufacturers do employ what I do for over 5 years now.
The psu I posted is MY choice for people.
I love the 3 12 volt rails (less crosstalk) and yes I love good filtering.

I realy agree with you.

 

[setishock]

Then if you agree with Alvino what is the point of this entire debate?

I would suggest one thing. Look in to attachments for O' scopes. You'll find a lot of add on items for measuring many different types of events. Be it RF to temps.

 

[2457]

I wrote all this down couse someone told that just becouse the computer is in a metal box, there is no EMI inside.
Thats a bullshit.

someone who has no clue about electrnoics, and says LIES (physicaly impossible things, wich any technician could easyly verify) should never tell me I talk bullshit. While I did post background materials related.
"I'm a certfified aviation electronics dunno what, and I mesured no voltage changes on my psu" is equal to : " I'm a car engineer suspension specialist, but I didn't notice stearing treshold". Read up to find out why.

should I let someone like this say I'm talking bullshit? no... I would hate my self.

I did tell in -i think - all my responses -maybe 1 didnt include it- that these mods are not for the avarage persons.

problem is that for a nice EMI mesureing
1. a good enviroment is needed --> probably most of don't have it
2. computers EMI are usualy way over 1 ghz, most scopes don't mesure them, and price for those that can are up in the skys... special "probes" //basicly sensitive antennas for oscope// may do the job, and in most case they are used. But for this high freqvency.. I don't think. oscopes (affordable for home / small laboratory) are good choices to mesure a simple liner transformers EMI, or .. in audible ranges, so checking for an hi-fi amplifyers "noise" they will do. Just think of the lowest freqvency You find in a computer.
Thats the PSU-s 25 khz. And its harmonics.
Anything else starts at the ghz range, not to mention harmonics. And the point is, to take into account the product of these harmonic distorsions.

I wrote this simple article set to show that there IS significant amount of noise/EMI/RFI inside any computer. And showd links that manufacturers DO battle with them.
In IT these noises are considered as "data". Sometimes they mess up the communication between devices in the computer, than error corretion or re- requesting data is what computer do. Thats where You loose work cycles.

allso about PSU modding.
Notice that I don't just filter the psu, but allso buffer the outputs.
Thats usefull, when You load Your cpu You will notice a nice voltage drop.

an example..
q6600 is one of the best overclock wise.
at 9x333 --search for forums, I only come up with linkable info-- the vcore setting is : 1.2875
windows idle: 1.23v
windows load : 1.18---1.20
what happens is, as soon as Yours cpu starts to work, it will lover its imeadnce / demand more power.
low output impedance will not let it fall thismuch,
and a buffercap will not let it drop suddenly.

so, what would happen if vcore drop would be reduced?
say.. it would drop down under load to 1.25?
You got it. You could have higher overclock.

Vcore drop is a common effect, it can not be elliminated.
But can be reduced. The guy told he mesured no voltage drop with his PSU (well.. its impossible, in best case there would be some drop that does not count, and for at least a short time a slightly bigger drop..)
To achieve a small vcore drop, a good psu is indeed needed.
It has to have a low output impedance, and proper filtering.

thats why separate rails are usefull. If an other device starts to get more and more amps at the same time as the one wich supplys vcore, the "sudden" drop will be larger. If after the drop the minimum wich is needed for the cpu to work is not present, the system will freeze.
When You run a staility test, basicly You get a view of by how temperature / load changes affect the system.

Keepeing a balance between components is important, start with a quality psu, becouse even if You have a stable motherboard and other stuff, and a good cpu, and powersupply does meet power output rates, if it can not compensate fast and enough of voltage drops, Your system will not be a good overclock platform. And may even freeze in normal operation, 140 watt quad core amd is likely to do that with say.. a codegen PSU.

the noises affect PSU freqvency of switching, and it affects the resistance of the coils in the transformator.
(2 * pi * f * L) + dc resistance is the impedance of the coil.
if freqvency is lowered, the input impedance of the transformer is allso lowered. The power drawn from the wall outlet is basicly vac * Vac / ((2 * pi * f * L) + dc resistance) and this apply to the secunder part of the transformer too.
see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_divider

loading effect for more info.
load canges as vcore demands more power, so the voltage changes too.
(verry basics of electronics, it is one of the verry basic calculations. Thats why there is no psu that does not have voltage drop..)

the outcome is, power supplys that have ferrite beads at the input, and have a high output power (wich can be done with a low output resistance) and have separate power rails at the output are the ones to go for.
Then You get a decent board, and then balance cpu /gpu / blabla other parts.

All this will not work well (specialy high power applications) if the power supplys voltage has flickers, or can not handle sudden load changes.
//to addres this I do use ferrite beads, separate power rails, and BIG efficient heatsinks so power transistors don't change temp. too much --> ensureing they have stable properitys. And less thermal noise, offcourse..


clearly, if someone reads some electronics will find out that all this makes sense, but -for the last time- is not needed for avarage people.

but, I made my posts becouse i don't like when people state its bullshit. When all info is available for anyone intrested. And I made clear points.
Aaaaand, if someone states he is an engineer, specialy in an area that requries EXTRA attention to noise/EMI/RFI filtering, I would only wish I knew wich aircraft is he related too. Becouse thats a flight not to take.

// for other people a verry simple example are the USB soundcards. They are made becouse of many reasons , but one is directly related here:
inside the computercase there is SO MUCH NOISE its more worth it to make it external. It is an audible lvl of noise.
http://www.linux.com/feature/43494

a qoute from there:
"Internal sound cards are subject to a lot of interference and that can cause distortion or background noise. An external device eliminates much of that."
//notice, in the artice it says its rubbbbbbbish, but its one of the first devices, and problems are mainly with linux not realy supporting this hardware. nowdays even soundblaster offers external sound devices.